Prog artists need us to promote their music.

Bonnek wrote: AtomicCrimsonRush wrote: The reality is we are ambassadors of prog when we become integrated into websites like this. As ambassadors we are accountable and should take our input seriously. If we stop doing that and are only in it for ourselves, thats when we should go elsewhere. Sorry but I entirely disagree with your "reality". We are nobody's ambassador and reviews shouldn't pretend to be anything else but a personal reflection on the album at hand. On top, a review should only take the music into account, not the artist's feelings. Or are artists 5-year-olds that need constant positive confirmation from us? I'm sure from David's post above that he certainly isn't. Besides, negative reviews don't put sales down at all, it's downloading and the massive amount of releases that water down sales. If anything, a 2-star review from me can be the perfect cue for someone else to buy the album instantly!

 Agreed--  besides, we do promote Prog artists; we do take our input seriously; we do make an impact. 

 

moshkito wrote:   Viagra?

If we had got Viagra, we would not had been reviewing albums. So that argument is self-defeating.  

AtomicCrimsonRush wrote: Bonnek wrote: AtomicCrimsonRush wrote: The reality is we are ambassadors of prog when we become integrated into websites like this. As ambassadors we are accountable and should take our input seriously. If we stop doing that and are only in it for ourselves, thats when we should go elsewhere. Sorry but I entirely disagree with your "reality". We are nobody's ambassador and reviews shouldn't pretend to be anything else but a personal reflection on the album at hand. On top, a review should only take the music into account, not the artist's feelings. Or are artists 5-year-olds that need constant positive confirmation from us? I'm sure from David's post above that he certainly isn't. Besides, negative reviews don't put sales down at all, it's downloading and the massive amount of releases that water down sales. If anything, a 2-star review from me can be the perfect cue for someone else to buy the album instantly! Well, I beg to differ as I have proof from liaising with certain artists that reviews do make a difference and we are most definitely ambassadors when our reviews can result in an artist becoming more well known or revered among the prog community. You state that downloading effects sales, well what a revelation! Negative reviews still have an impact. i wont go and see a movie if 6 renowned reviewers say its a bomb. Same goes for CDs. One review may not make an impact but certainly If 50 people review an album as trash surely that will impact sales. It has to as people will believe the majority. Word of mouth is the killer and you are only as good as your last album.    And you state "On top, a review should only take the music into account, not the artist's feelings." Did I mention otherwise? Stop trying to put words into my mouth and read between the lines. I made no such comment. Of course we don't take the artists feelings totally into account, we are reviewing a piece of art and it is a subjective action on our part, but nevertheless it will make an impact on the artist's livelihood and we at least should bear that in mind, or do we need to become insensitive for that frame of thinking? We are not dealing with mindless automotons, these are people who have poured in their heart and soul into their work. We still remain impartial, with integrity and honesty but we need to justify our reviews, good or bad.

If you don't go to see a movie or buy a CD because 6 people tell you it sucks, what faith do you have in your own judgement? I appreciate we all want to make an informed choice about what we buy but when it comes to something as unquantifiable as the arts we surely have to use our own nous. For all its faults PA does in my opinion represent a community where the majority 'herd' mentality is mercifully minimal (Isn't Prog such a niche market of popular music that its fans are habitually contra-trendy?) With regards the artists feelings, I do genuinely applaud your sensitivity to how opinion may impact on their livelihood but ain't this the first step towards censorship of criticism? (and I'm sure you would deplore reciprocal censorship of artists)

Sorry to sound so harsh but we really are under no obligation whatsoever to promote any artists work full stop.

Anybody ever get emails from bands or companies offering $500 to write a favourable review? I have got a few in the past but passed.

AtomicCrimsonRush wrote: ...   And you state "On top, a review should only take the music into account, not the artist's feelings." Did I mention otherwise? Stop trying to put words into my mouth and read between the lines.

No you didn't, don't be so sensitive. It was a point made somewhere earlier in the thread.

AtomicCrimsonRush wrote: ... nevertheless it will make an impact on the artist's livelihood and we at least should bear that in mind

Well I'm sure it doesn't. I take it everybody is wise enough to listen to something before buying.
And a negative review might be just as good a motiviation to listen as a positive review.

There's no such thing as bad advertisement, some people say.

And the thing about bearing any of those assumed consequences in mind, I answer with a definite no, that's censorship.
If my customers want to criticize me in front of my boss they shouldn't consider that I could lose my job.
If their criticism is right then I need to bear any consequences.


Edited by Bonnek - February 23 2011 at 09:59

Non issue.  Ratings of fan reviews eventually get balanced out and rare is the case where a roundly panned album is a shimmering masterpiece.  Professional critics and record labels do a lot more damage to artists and since we are powerless to stop that, why should pressure be brought on fans to temper genuine and sincere criticism? And if ratings are so make or break, the consequence of asking fans to be 'considerate' would be that people would eventually be faced with high ratings for mediocre albums and lose faith in the judgment of this or any other website's reviewers. So, there you go.   

Going back to David's original point re illegal sites when you Google the album, I've just done that. Top of the list was David's website, and next were Amazon & HMV (this might be because I shop at these quite a lot, I don't really know how google works). But it isn't long before you get to the interminable file sharing sites.

We were actually talking about this at work today, and a colleague came up with an interesting idea/thought.

Like me, he is a music nut, although very little of it is prog. He gave me a scenario whereby, for example, he has all of Deep Purple's 1970's output on vinyl. Why, he asked, would he want to pay a further £7 to £10 per download when he had already paid his royalties to the band for tjhe original copy? However, the last couple of albums, he has paid legal downloads to Amazon. Unlike me, he will not pay a lot of money for a decent vinyl to digital converter.

Therefore, he argued, would it not be possible for the industry, governments, and artists, in partnership, to allow free sharing or downloads of albums that were originally released on vinyl prior to a certain date, and then police a system whereby new work HAS to be downloaded legally, paid for, with sites closed down for breaching such an agreement/law?

I personally think it would be difficult to enforce such a law or agreement, but surely to goodness, the industry simply must come to accept that the present model simply isn't working.  The way to survive is to adapt and change along with consumer's actions. Marillion, as an example, have done this very well.

As for ProgArchives, we are not professional reviewers, and neither should we be treated as such. We are enthusiasts who, to the credit of the site, have gained an excellent reputation in the prog rock community. We should always ensure that our reviews are honest, dispassionate, and as if it were appearing in a professional publication. As David said, a negative review is okay, as long as it is an honest one.

I personally was thrilled when David sent me a PM. I had no idea he was a member of the site.

Lastly, it really would be a great shame if Random Acts Of Beauty were to be a rarity of a release from him. If that is because of the financial issues, especially around the free download sites, then I repeat - a different model for the industry is desperately needed.

I'm off to take the viagra now. No, hold on. The nearest zoo is about two hundred miles away. Oh well, another pint of Brains SA bitter then

DavidMinasian wrote: Vibrationbaby wrote: Anybody ever get emails from bands or companies offering $500 to write a favourable review? I have got a few in the past but passed. Um, could you forward those onto me please?

If an artist offered that kind of money you would have to work for Mojo or Rolling Stone or something, as those reviews have more clout than here online. On the other and I am hearing a lot about how we are only fans and not professional reviewers. While this is the case I would say that those professional reviews in magazines do not do a lot for me personally and i dont think I am the only one here.

For sure sites like PA with its reviews, ratings and forums are influential, I have no idea how much quantitatively, but they are. I have purchased quite some albums because of what I read about them. I am just one name in PA but there are more invisible people behind me, all of my prog friends are not good at english so they do not directly read and participate in PA, but they get information from me and they also buy albums because of what I share with them.

Gerinski wrote: For sure sites like PA with its reviews, ratings and forums are influential, I have no idea how much quantitatively, but they are. I have purchased quite some albums because of what I read about them. I am just one name in PA but there are more invisible people behind me, all of my prog friends are not good at english so they do not directly read and participate in PA, but they get information from me and they also buy albums because of what I share with them.   (Good) musicians and bands undoubtedly can benefit from this promotion, it's another miracle of the net, as long as the work is good the public will do the marketing for them, mouth to mouth, all over the world, and it will not cost them a penny. In this respect I don't want to talk about the complaints about the harm of file sharing...   But as others have said, we have to be careful with the thing of reviews and ratings. I guess we all have our "personal little masterpieces", albums we love and which for some reason are not widely recognized, either they are unknown, ignored, or people miss to find the right "click" with them which we did. If we would just have followed the mass opinion ("mass" in prog context means always a small minority anyway) we would have probably never discovered them. So we have to think the same towards unknown albums, the opinion of other people can be a helpful guideline but it is no guarantee that you will not love the album in question. Trust only your own brain.   Somehow related to this is the status of 3-star albums. If we purchase albums based on PA ratings, people would probably concentrate on 4 & 5 star albums. I myself have to frequently remind myself that 3-star albums I do not know are very probably GOOD albums, and if I feel that they may fit my taste I will likely not regret my purchase. I have purchased 4 and 5-star albums which were not really my cup of tea, while I'm sure that I would have enjoyed much more many 3 (or even 2?) -star albums fitting my taste.

Thats a good point about 3 star albums being still worth a listen and not forgotten. I myself have a ratings system that i stick to and i would bet most reviewers are similar, if not identical.