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moshkito 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Online
Points: 17888
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 Posted: April 27 2010 at 15:19 |
 AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:
The idea just dawned on me from another thread that prog music is so personal that some albums may appear to be brilliant masterpieces and then the band's next release comes across as an absolute disaster. A case in point.
Another case in point. When Pink Floyd released 'The Wall' I thought I had heard quite possibly the greatest piece of music in history, and then 'The Final Cut' was released. TFC is simply apalling and showed how a band can go from the peak of the mountain to the abyss. |
If your name was Picasso, and you painted something, and someone said it is brilliant, and a year later they came back and looked at your new painting and said something like ... it's not as good ... how would you feel?
From a commercial stand point you are right. From an artistic stand point you are so wrong it's not even funny. On top of it, if my name was Picasso, I might even say something like who are you to tell me what to paint? (... and he did many times, btw!)
And this is important, when you are looking at music. What are you asking? What do you want? ... basically you just told Pink Floyd that you wanted something but that was not what you wanted. And how the heck could Pink Floyd, or anyone else, ever know what you wanted?
You see the problem?
This is the reason why I say here in this board all the time, we have to stop thinking as commercial pundits that think that we should be the definition of music and art! It's never gonna happen. You will have the biggest revolution in your hands, no different than a religious war!
Art, is about change, and about doing different things. So if you don't like "The Final Cut", all you are telling me is that Pink Floyd is not the group of men that you want, or the group of artists that you want. And I'm going to say ... good luck pal ... because what you want is in your head, and you are not capable of putting it into music or paper to go do it yourself! But you will stand up and judge others because of it? ... ohh ... and on top of it make a judgement about the time that is not how many people thought or felt at all. I happen to think that "The Final Cut" was brilliant ... and more than likely also was a part of "The Wall" but it had to be cut short because it was already too long! Well, between you and I, it was not long enough for me! Not even close!
Please place yourself in the artists shoes before you state something like that ... it is rather sad and sometimes demeaning, and this is the reason why so many of these artists have to ignore the "public" ... you wouldn't want me to tell you how to live your life would you? Or anyone else for that matter!
Edited by moshkito - April 27 2010 at 15:26
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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RoyFairbank
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Joined: January 07 2008
Location: Somewhere
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Points: 1072
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Posted: April 27 2010 at 21:28 |
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I'm so tired my brain Its like I'm drunk with sleepiness. But anywho, I'm just that guy whose here to say:
THE FINAL CUT IS THE BESTEST ALBUM OF THE 1980S. YO, OUT.
DA EDIT:
Greatest albums of all clymes (or is it climes?)
1. Animals
2. The Wall
3. Dark Side of the Moon
4. The Final Cut
5. Lamb Lies Down On Broadway
6. Quadrophenia
7. Selling England by the Pound
8. Wish You Were Here
9. Who's Next
10. Foxtrot (maybe)
Remember I'm DRUNK with sleepiness, wasted, intoxicated, inebriated
Edited by RoyFairbank - April 27 2010 at 21:35
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Xanthous
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 16 2009
Location: Dayton, Ohio
Status: Offline
Points: 207
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Posted: April 27 2010 at 22:00 |
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May sound crazy, but after falling in love with Tales From Topographic Oceans, I can't listen to Close To The Edge more than once a month although I believe that they are both masterpieces.
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Kashmir75
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 25 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1029
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Posted: April 28 2010 at 00:04 |
Ahmadbarqawi wrote:
Dream Theater :
From Failure to Greatness: Falling into Infinity to Metropolis 2: Scenes from a Memory
From Greatness to Failure: 6 Degrees Inner Turbulence to Train of Thought
Also Queensryche From the Great Epic "Promised Land" to the disastrous "Hear in the Now Frontier"... and its been an Epic fail for those guys ever since |
I actually like all of those above-mentioned DT albums. Yes, even FII. I find it uplifting.
Agreed about Queensryche. They've been on the slide since Mindcrime, IMO.
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Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while...
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Kashmir75
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 25 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1029
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Posted: April 28 2010 at 00:09 |
matansaldi wrote:
It's not from the prog department, but still another example of how to fall from heaven to hell.
Iron Maiden's Seventh Son of a Seventh Son, and then No Prayer For the Dying.
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Good call. Maiden going from one of their best albums, IMO (the ambitious concept album Seventh Son); to one of their weakest (the more stripped down No Prayer For The Dying) came to my mind straight away when I saw this topic.
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Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while...
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AtomicCrimsonRush
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Joined: July 02 2008
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Posted: April 28 2010 at 00:40 |
hmmm
Edited by AtomicCrimsonRush - April 28 2010 at 00:49
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AtomicCrimsonRush
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Joined: July 02 2008
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Posted: April 28 2010 at 00:48 |
AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:
moshkito wrote:
AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:
The idea just dawned on me from another thread that prog music is so personal that some albums may appear to be brilliant masterpieces and then the band's next release comes across as an absolute disaster. A case in point.
Another case in point. When Pink Floyd released 'The Wall' I thought I had heard quite possibly the greatest piece of music in history, and then 'The Final Cut' was released. TFC is simply apalling and showed how a band can go from the peak of the mountain to the abyss. |
If your name was Picasso, and you painted something, and someone said it is brilliant, and a year later they came back and looked at your new painting and said something like ... it's not as good ... how would you feel?
From a commercial stand point you are right. From an artistic stand point you are so wrong it's not even funny. On top of it, if my name was Picasso, I might even say something like who are you to tell me what to paint? (... and he did many times, btw!)
I would say I will tell you who I am Mr Picasso I am the person reviewing your art and if you do not like it get out of the business because reviewing or mass opinion is what makes or breaks you in this business. If you are popular and well liked you will sell your art, if you are maligned or ridiculed for your art, you have precious hope in selling it. The public opinion is the stuff of breakthrough and in the case of art, it is there to be critiqued. If you wish to make a breakthrough in the music business it is essential that the reviews are favourable. Look what happened to Gary Numan - tragically he was blessed with a masive hit in 'Cars' - mass public bought the album and didn't understand the style - he was ridiculed so bad that he actually became depressed and began to release one mediocre album after another eg: Dance, Warriors, Outland, Metal Rhythm and The Fury. He eventually gave up and just released what he liked such as Exile or Sacrifice, changed his style completely into industrial dark gothic, and didnt care about the mass public opinion. He has a cult following underground but nothing like the success of the 80s. He still releases albums and nobody outside UK really cares. Kudos that he continues to perform and I believe he doesnt even bother singing 'Cars' now. My point is the public reviews of his work hurt him so they do enforce decisions of product sales, and he would be long gone now if he had not continued to produce his own art without taking into consideration the reviews of his work which were scathing usually. The reviews were what drove him.
And this is important, when you are looking at music. What are you asking? What do you want? ... basically you just told Pink Floyd that you wanted something but that was not what you wanted. And how the heck could Pink Floyd, or anyone else, ever know what you wanted?
You see the problem?
I see the problem but as I stated whether Pink Floyd knows what I want is the point, they can't second guess but they should not stop producing quality albums and they will just churn out mediocre stuff if the public accepts it. If The public do not accept this the band fails and they should go back to the studios and write some decent stuff, they should assess what went wrong and how to approach things differently if they want to survive and thrive as a band. This is what Metallica did after the uninspired drivel of St Anger - after the scathing attacks on their worst album they realised it came down to bad production and no inspiration and poor decisions - Now Death Magnetic has brought the band back to the heights of the glorious metal 80s for them, and fans are impressed enough to flock to their concerts and buy the album. I love the fact they listened to the reviews and the buying public and put in an effort to improve.
This is the reason why I say here in this board all the time, we have to stop thinking as commercial pundits that think that we should be the definition of music and art! It's never gonna happen. You will have the biggest revolution in your hands, no different than a religious war!
Art, is about change, and about doing different things. So if you don't like "The Final Cut", all you are telling me is that Pink Floyd is not the group of men that you want, or the group of artists that you want. And I'm going to say ... good luck pal ... because what you want is in your head, and you are not capable of putting it into music or paper to go do it yourself! But you will stand up and judge others because of it? ... ohh ... and on top of it make a judgement about the time that is not how many people thought or felt at all. I happen to think that "The Final Cut" was brilliant ... and more than likely also was a part of "The Wall" but it had to be cut short because it was already too long! Well, between you and I, it was not long enough for me! Not even close!
That sort of talk, if taken seriously, would put a lot of professional reviewers out of work as they would be second guessing the buying public - they have to go on their initial reaction from the experience of listening to other albums and make the approptriate comparison and the judgement has to be at the reviewers discretion, and not questioned as music is as subjective as any art; a judgement is a reaction and a choice. You have to go for the gut reaction and if you are reviewing and don't like something you have the freedom to state it in any way you wish and state why you feel this way, regardless of how others may feel. That is what makes a good reviewer not a people pleasing reviewer who thinks everything deserves merit - the fact is not everything out there is good even the artists agree with this.
Please place yourself in the artists shoes before you state something like that ... it is rather sad and sometimes demeaning, and this is the reason why so many of these artists have to ignore the "public" ... you wouldn't want me to tell you how to live your life would you? Or anyone else for that matter! |
No, I wouldn't but I don't open myself up for criticism of my art. Any artist is an open target it goes with the business. Musicians are there to be critiqued, look at the way the judges critique the contestants on American Idol! Why do they attack them? Because they are only preparing them for the real world which is harsh and judgemental - it just goes hand in hand. If you are a musician you will be critiqued. As a reviewer I want to be critical, firm but fair, if I like something I say it and vice versa but there are reasons and these should be stipulated too. A bad review says I hate the album with no reasons given; no validity in other words and those reviews should be ignored, however if you read my reviews I give reasons and therefore there is validity in the review. I hope that settles things somewhat, at least the way I see it. |
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: April 28 2010 at 03:18 |
AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:
AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:
moshkito wrote:
AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:
The idea just dawned on me from another thread that prog music is so personal that some albums may appear to be brilliant masterpieces and then the band's next release comes across as an absolute disaster. A case in point.
Another case in point. When Pink Floyd released 'The Wall' I thought I had heard quite possibly the greatest piece of music in history, and then 'The Final Cut' was released. TFC is simply apalling and showed how a band can go from the peak of the mountain to the abyss. |
If your name was Picasso, and you painted something, and someone said it is brilliant, and a year later they came back and looked at your new painting and said something like ... it's not as good ... how would you feel?
From a commercial stand point you are right. From an artistic stand point you are so wrong it's not even funny. On top of it, if my name was Picasso, I might even say something like who are you to tell me what to paint? (... and he did many times, btw!)
I would say I will tell you who I am Mr Picasso I am the person reviewing your art and if you do not like it get out of the business because reviewing or mass opinion is what makes or breaks you in this business. If you are popular and well liked you will sell your art, if you are maligned or ridiculed for your art, you have precious hope in selling it. The public opinion is the stuff of breakthrough and in the case of art, it is there to be critiqued. If you wish to make a breakthrough in the music business it is essential that the reviews are favourable. Look what happened to Gary Numan - tragically he was blessed with a masive hit in 'Cars' - mass public bought the album and didn't understand the style - he was ridiculed so bad that he actually became depressed and began to release one mediocre album after another eg: Dance, Warriors, Outland, Metal Rhythm and The Fury. He eventually gave up and just released what he liked such as Exile or Sacrifice, changed his style completely into industrial dark gothic, and didnt care about the mass public opinion. He has a cult following underground but nothing like the success of the 80s. He still releases albums and nobody outside UK really cares. Kudos that he continues to perform and I believe he doesnt even bother singing 'Cars' now. My point is the public reviews of his work hurt him so they do enforce decisions of product sales, and he would be long gone now if he had not continued to produce his own art without taking into consideration the reviews of his work which were scathing usually. The reviews were what drove him.
And this is important, when you are looking at music. What are you asking? What do you want? ... basically you just told Pink Floyd that you wanted something but that was not what you wanted. And how the heck could Pink Floyd, or anyone else, ever know what you wanted?
You see the problem?
I see the problem but as I stated whether Pink Floyd knows what I want is the point, they can't second guess but they should not stop producing quality albums and they will just churn out mediocre stuff if the public accepts it. If The public do not accept this the band fails and they should go back to the studios and write some decent stuff, they should assess what went wrong and how to approach things differently if they want to survive and thrive as a band. This is what Metallica did after the uninspired drivel of St Anger - after the scathing attacks on their worst album they realised it came down to bad production and no inspiration and poor decisions - Now Death Magnetic has brought the band back to the heights of the glorious metal 80s for them, and fans are impressed enough to flock to their concerts and buy the album. I love the fact they listened to the reviews and the buying public and put in an effort to improve.
This is the reason why I say here in this board all the time, we have to stop thinking as commercial pundits that think that we should be the definition of music and art! It's never gonna happen. You will have the biggest revolution in your hands, no different than a religious war!
Art, is about change, and about doing different things. So if you don't like "The Final Cut", all you are telling me is that Pink Floyd is not the group of men that you want, or the group of artists that you want. And I'm going to say ... good luck pal ... because what you want is in your head, and you are not capable of putting it into music or paper to go do it yourself! But you will stand up and judge others because of it? ... ohh ... and on top of it make a judgement about the time that is not how many people thought or felt at all. I happen to think that "The Final Cut" was brilliant ... and more than likely also was a part of "The Wall" but it had to be cut short because it was already too long! Well, between you and I, it was not long enough for me! Not even close!
That sort of talk, if taken seriously, would put a lot of professional reviewers out of work as they would be second guessing the buying public - they have to go on their initial reaction from the experience of listening to other albums and make the approptriate comparison and the judgement has to be at the reviewers discretion, and not questioned as music is as subjective as any art; a judgement is a reaction and a choice. You have to go for the gut reaction and if you are reviewing and don't like something you have the freedom to state it in any way you wish and state why you feel this way, regardless of how others may feel. That is what makes a good reviewer not a people pleasing reviewer who thinks everything deserves merit - the fact is not everything out there is good even the artists agree with this.
Please place yourself in the artists shoes before you state something like that ... it is rather sad and sometimes demeaning, and this is the reason why so many of these artists have to ignore the "public" ... you wouldn't want me to tell you how to live your life would you? Or anyone else for that matter! |
No, I wouldn't but I don't open myself up for criticism of my art. Any artist is an open target it goes with the business. Musicians are there to be critiqued, look at the way the judges critique the contestants on American Idol! Why do they attack them? Because they are only preparing them for the real world which is harsh and judgemental - it just goes hand in hand. If you are a musician you will be critiqued. As a reviewer I want to be critical, firm but fair, if I like something I say it and vice versa but there are reasons and these should be stipulated too. A bad review says I hate the album with no reasons given; no validity in other words and those reviews should be ignored, however if you read my reviews I give reasons and therefore there is validity in the review. I hope that settles things somewhat, at least the way I see it. |
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the problem is that the public is a lazy beast; they want what they are used to. any novelty is rejected at first. it takes some time before they respect anything new and original. sad but true. there are countless examples for that in history. sometimes you are lucky though and the public catches on immediately. but, and here is the spanner in the works: you never know in advance
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 A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
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Points: 3281
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Posted: April 28 2010 at 06:18 |
Neither of these are prog but here are my two best examples of records that pretty much single-handedly killed my interest in a band I had previously loved for years.
Weezer - Make Believe
REM - Around The Sun
And in proggier waters, I haven't digested it fully yet but Coheed And Cambria, who were the light of my life with their 2003 and 2005 releases, may have lost me with this year's Year Of The Black Rainbow.
Also, to get back to the original post, Red by King Crimson is a masterpiece, whilst Discipline... um. hmm, yes... well if you can't say anything nice...
PS The Final Cut is a masterpiece.
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boo boo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 905
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Posted: April 28 2010 at 08:26 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
]
I like Metal Machine Music. |
HOW?
That's like saying you like getting stabbed in the ear, it's the closest thing to that experience.
| I have to agree with KC, with the exception of the song Take on Me (and I'm not sure whether I like that ironically or seriously) the synths and electro drums of the '80s are inherently bad for me. They're just some of the worst ideas anybody's ever had in the music business. I think it's a generational thing. |
How old are you?
And yes I know people who have the same feeling about 70s synths and bluesy guitar licks.
So it is a generational thing, though I grew up in the 90s so maybe I wasn't overexposed to it, but I enjoy a lot of music from the 80s (very very little of which is prog, the 80s was a terrible decade for prog) and I think it's a pretty underrated decade overall.
I don't know how a prog fan can have problems with synths, but even the electric drums doesn't bother me, then again I'm a electronica fan. As far as the 80s is concerned, I'd take new wave groups like Talking Heads and The Police over Marillion and astonishingly boring stuff like IQ without a second thought.
Edited by boo boo - April 28 2010 at 08:41
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Online
Points: 17888
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Posted: April 28 2010 at 08:56 |
Xanthous wrote:
May sound crazy, but after falling in love with Tales From Topographic Oceans, I can't listen to Close To The Edge more than once a month although I believe that they are both masterpieces. |
I still think that TFTO is one of the best rock things ever written. I still think of it as a massive symphonic work done by people our age, instead of someone that died 100 years ago that we think is good and no one else is!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Online
Points: 17888
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Posted: April 28 2010 at 09:07 |
| No, I wouldn't but I don't open myself up for criticism of my art. Any artist is an open target it goes with the business |
How can you, as an artist and writer, think that you are not opening yourself up to criticism on your work? ... It is visible after all, isn't it?
The question is from the artist stand point, and the history of the arts, that if I do not stand up for what I see and do as an art, it won't go far anyway. The better I can define my work and myself, the better I can present it to you.
I can NOT, present my work in your words! You must see that. Picasso can't paint with your words or ideals. He paints with what he SEES.
I suppose that it is important to me when we think that the media and critics have the right to strip the person of himself/herself. You will not have "art" at the end of that.
Do not confuse your view with another view. And the fact that because you are taking a "public" view, you have the right to dictate what the artist/person must do. There would be no change if that was the case ... just more lawyers confusing the law, but that's another issue.
So, in a fun example, when you see "Amadeus" take a look at the court and the "critics" ... guess who you sided with? ... yeah ... the one that said .. "too many notes? ... that's what it seems like to me. You have to make room for the person and the individuality, or the music stops living.
There is no Peter Hammill or Van Der Graff Generator without this ability or freedom to a very large degree, is one of the best examples I can give you. Or a Roy Harper in my book!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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AtomicCrimsonRush
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Joined: July 02 2008
Location: Australia
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Posted: April 28 2010 at 10:33 |
i PM'd some of this but worth stating here
i hope my reviews cause people to desire to hear more artists and discover what is out there not the opposite.
If the review is an unfavourable report on an artist, hopefully that is rare. I have not awarded many 1 star ratings. Pink Floyd like everyone has ups and downs and this needs to be acknowledged keeping it real for me and the readers. Only fan boys give constant masterpiece ratings and nothing is achieved. The reader must be able to get an appreciation of deserved albums and ascertain those that they may be better to steer well clear of. It is at their discretion if they want to take the rating seriously. i do if a majority is rating low.
i also look for general consensus - 50 reviewers can't all be wrong if they are giving the same rating.
Like all reviewers there is a necessity to be firm in my convictions, and at the same time remain accountable to those convictions. With accountability comes responsibilty and ultimately validity. If my reviews are valid or taken as such I treat that as affirmation that i am making a difference.
Reviewers want to inform people of which decisions to make - to buy or not to buy - THAT is the question...
how do other reviewers feel? getting off the topic a bit but lets hear it. Am I on the right track here?
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shockedjazz
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Joined: March 12 2008
Location: Madrid (spain)
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Posted: April 28 2010 at 11:06 |
Oh its great some finne discussion! 
I have to aclare first one thing that its obvious that by Pop we could be refering to different things!
Thats what my message whats about.
Theres no way to identifie the pop of the sixties to the one of the 80.
The second one is a industrialization of what the sixties pop have of (not just commercial but ) brainwashing. As i said in the forum about innovation the were very innovative...they make the dullest music ever!!!
As KingCrimson 250 said i hate everything (in its sound) expecially when the intention behind this generic sound is so obvious. And dacord commercialty was also a key factor in the sixties...but it wasnt evrything about that ...thats why something other came out of it.
Theres no way to (honestly ) compare The Beatles with Madonna, is like compare a living being with a corpse, something absurd and disgusting.
And yes i have a strong anti-80 pop feeling.
And yes i have a strong pro 60-70 pop...what i find obvious because im defending the beatles!!!
And you miss that i love Caravan, i also have a review on theme, i even like "Golf Girl"!!!!! But theres no synth solos like that in the 80.   The proof you gave me, if you are in a disco putting "tainted love" or somelike that...and you put "interstellar overdrive"...we could bet the reactions.
And knots could be repetitive but is worked and is surprising it have something like the pop of the beatles unique...and its not pop, is not something for social interaction in a brainwashed area.
Again IMO.
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shockedjazz
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Posted: April 28 2010 at 11:09 |
Pawn hearts is much greater than Godbluff.
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shockedjazz
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Posted: April 28 2010 at 11:19 |
If Pop is Mozart and Dixieland also would be folk music and Gosspel ( as soon it was popular)  .
And in this case i would be hating everything except Stockhausen Thats not the case.
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
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Points: 3281
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Posted: April 28 2010 at 16:08 |
Non-prog but Doves sure did this. 2002's The Last Broadcast was possibly my favourite record of the year and the 2004 follow-up Some Cities was so bad I gave my copy away.
In proggier waters, Porcupine Tree may have done this with Fear Of A Blank Planet to The Incident. The Incident isn't horrendous, but it's certainly a sharp and alarming decline.
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 29079
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Posted: April 29 2010 at 01:54 |
Textbook wrote:
Non-prog but Doves sure did this. 2002's The Last Broadcast was possibly my favourite record of the year and the 2004 follow-up Some Cities was so bad I gave my copy away.
In proggier waters, Porcupine Tree may have done this with Fear Of A Blank Planet to The Incident. The Incident isn't horrendous, but it's certainly a sharp and alarming decline. |
I'm puzzled by the comments about Porcupine Tree although I realise you are not alone.For me PT reached an absolute peak with Deadwing with a very slight slide after with FOABP and The Incident both being not quite as good.
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Textbook
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Posted: April 29 2010 at 06:07 |
Getting back to what someone said about Opeth doing this with Blackwater Park/Deliverance, I think a lot of people misunderstand Deliverance. It was not the follow-up to Blackwater Park. The follow-up to Blackwater Park was Ghost Reveries. Deliverance was simply the next album, if you know what I'm saying. Deliverance was never intended to be some sort of mind-blowing progression of the Opeth sound- it was the sound of Opeth putting the production aside and clearing their heads with a sort of stripped down, garage rock record, or their equivalent of it. Having this in mind, I think it really makes little sense to smash it for not being like Blackwater Park. It's the same band but they're using a different MO so it's not really fair or useful to compare. If we view Deliverance as a relatively carefree, back to basics record, I think it's hard to argue that it was a total failure.
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Ahmadbarqawi
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Joined: May 10 2007
Location: Jordan
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Points: 149
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Posted: April 29 2010 at 07:39 |
and how could one forget Deep Purple, from the enjoyable "Perfect Strangers" to the totally forgettable "House of Blue Light"
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{Flashlights shade shrunken views
Of a red demon’s foxtrot in brews
Guns & flowers crown morning news
Panic-stricken guilt now ensues}
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