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Blacksword 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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 Posted: July 05 2017 at 08:58 |
 siLLy puPPy wrote:
^ yep and he's right. Putin and Russia hasn't commited a fraction of the atrocities that the US has. Of course they have done their share of empire building at other's costs but the US has hundreds of military bases all over the world essentially for the fact of forcing countries to peg themselves to the US dollar. Russia is weak militarily but are brilliant in the scientific world. In fact one of the reasons that the capitalists are so afraid of Russia is 1) because their sciences are so advanced that they could crash the world economy if all the technological discoveries they have achieved were allowed to hit the market and 2) Russia is colluding with Brazil, India, China and South Africa (BRICS) to create an alternative currency that developing nations can adhere to instead of the dollar. This is having some effect as the Chinese yuan has been making serious ground. The days of US domination through the war machines is coming to an end and the rest of us who want to live in peace with our neighbors around the world can hopefully be proud of our country again but personally i find the whole notion of nation states to be obsolete and have no need to attach my identity to it. |
Putin may not have as much blood on his hands as Bush jnr (for example) but historically Russia's bodycount could give most nations a run for their money. Stalin killed over 40 million of his own people. Not that it's a contest, of course. Putin scares me as much as Trump does. He's not the type to blink, and Russia has a history of survival and withstanding hardship. They almost embrace the challenge, whereas the west cowers from it. I would also dispute that Russia is militarily weak. Like in the good ole days of the USSR, it seems to be where most of its money goes these days, especially since NATO has insisted on pushing up to her borders.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20602
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Posted: July 05 2017 at 09:19 |
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See, Trump isn't always wrong. How does the saying go? Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
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Posted: July 05 2017 at 12:37 |
siLLy puPPy wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
Vompatti wrote:
But Saudi-Arabia is an ally of the US [italics mine]. How is a thoughtcrime like this allowed on a US-based forum? |
Because we still enjoy freedom of speech, unlike the Saudi's...
For now anyway..  |
I think the US is the biggest rogue state in the world these days. Undeclared wars for decades, IMF loans forced upon developing nations, CIA sponsored overthrowing of democratic leaders of other nations, etc. If anyone cares to dig deep into the untold history, the US has been THE quintessential rogue nation since WWII. Saudi Arabia is allowed to appear as if it's rogue in order to focus the attention away from the true miscreants but it's not hard to learn through declassified documents and Freedom of Information Act requests exactly what has been going on. Check out Oliver Stone's Untold History of the United States and it really only scratches the surface.
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Agreed on the above but not the bold part: Regardless how he may see himself, Oliver Stone is a movie
producer and not a historian. He tells stories that need to be slightly altered
for added dramatic effect and THAT disqualifies him from being a holder of the truth (Pravda in Russian). He has made quite a few twists to the history of the
USA that are fantastic and biased. But mostly, his ‘opinions’ on the USSR are
patently misguided and daubed with numerous coats of rosy paint, his
semi-acknowledgement of Stalin as a great leader and war strategist is LAUGHABLE: his numerous blunders (Finno-Russian war, the purge of the Red Army as well as
a series of tactical errors) are there for anyone to see and read. A true historian
researches BOTH sides, in order to determine the dynamics of all protagonists,
in order to better understand the decisions, circumstances and consequences of
their actions. Unbiased hopefully, which is not an Oliver Stone trait.  He is also quite the Russophile, beaming in Vlady's presence! Scratching the surface IS the problem......
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 15189
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Posted: July 05 2017 at 14:29 |
Blacksword wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
^ yep and he's right. Putin and Russia hasn't commited a fraction of the atrocities that the US has. Of course they have done their share of empire building at other's costs but the US has hundreds of military bases all over the world essentially for the fact of forcing countries to peg themselves to the US dollar. Russia is weak militarily but are brilliant in the scientific world. In fact one of the reasons that the capitalists are so afraid of Russia is 1) because their sciences are so advanced that they could crash the world economy if all the technological discoveries they have achieved were allowed to hit the market and 2) Russia is colluding with Brazil, India, China and South Africa (BRICS) to create an alternative currency that developing nations can adhere to instead of the dollar. This is having some effect as the Chinese yuan has been making serious ground. The days of US domination through the war machines is coming to an end and the rest of us who want to live in peace with our neighbors around the world can hopefully be proud of our country again but personally i find the whole notion of nation states to be obsolete and have no need to attach my identity to it. |
Putin may not have as much blood on his hands as Bush jnr (for example) but historically Russia's bodycount could give most nations a run for their money. Stalin killed over 40 million of his own people.
Not that it's a contest, of course. Putin scares me as much as Trump does. He's not the type to blink, and Russia has a history of survival and withstanding hardship. They almost embrace the challenge, whereas the west cowers from it. I would also dispute that Russia is militarily weak. Like in the good ole days of the USSR, it seems to be where most of its money goes these days, especially since NATO has insisted on pushing up to her borders. |
No one can blame Putin for what happened before he was even born. Of course Stalin takes the cake as most murderous thug. Russian military power in comparison to the US is what i meant. When it comes to Putin we need to focus on Russia since the break up of the Soviet Union. Most Westerners have NO idea the hardships endured by the average citizens of all the former Soviet block countries after the dissolution. Also never reported is exactly how many times Russia has tried to create peace with the US but the fact is that the corporate elite who control our government at the moment NEEEEED an enemy and they are doing everything in their power to make Russia seem more dangerous than it is. I would never excuse any wrongs committed by any nation, i'm merely saying that the Russia hype is extremely exaggerated regarding 'national security' of Western countries.
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 15189
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Posted: July 05 2017 at 14:33 |
tszirmay wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
Vompatti wrote:
But Saudi-Arabia is an ally of the US [italics mine]. How is a thoughtcrime like this allowed on a US-based forum? |
Because we still enjoy freedom of speech, unlike the Saudi's...
For now anyway.. |
I think the US is the biggest rogue state in the world these days. Undeclared wars for decades, IMF loans forced upon developing nations, CIA sponsored overthrowing of democratic leaders of other nations, etc. If anyone cares to dig deep into the untold history, the US has been THE quintessential rogue nation since WWII. Saudi Arabia is allowed to appear as if it's rogue in order to focus the attention away from the true miscreants but it's not hard to learn through declassified documents and Freedom of Information Act requests exactly what has been going on. Check out Oliver Stone's Untold History of the United States and it really only scratches the surface.
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Agreed on the above but not the bold part: Regardless how he may see himself, Oliver Stone is a movie
producer and not a historian. He tells stories that need to be slightly altered
for added dramatic effect and THAT disqualifies him from being a holder of the truth (Pravda in Russian). He has made quite a few twists to the history of the
USA that are fantastic and biased. But mostly, his ‘opinions’ on the USSR are
patently misguided and daubed with numerous coats of rosy paint, his
semi-acknowledgement of Stalin as a great leader and war strategist is LAUGHABLE: his numerous blunders (Finno-Russian war, the purge of the Red Army as well as
a series of tactical errors) are there for anyone to see and read. A true historian
researches BOTH sides, in order to determine the dynamics of all protagonists,
in order to better understand the decisions, circumstances and consequences of
their actions. Unbiased hopefully, which is not an Oliver Stone trait. He is also quite the Russophile, beaming in Vlady's presence! Scratching the surface IS the problem......
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Oliver Stone's movies have given him a bad rep and no doubt he didn't get everything right in his movies that he had total control over. The difference is that The Untold History Of The United States is ENTIRELY based on declassified documents from the US government itself. The series was a collaboration with historian Peter Kznick and the series was fact checked multiple times by Showtime before it was aired. It is an airtight case for being 100% factual. I'm somewhat of a Russophile myself, that meaning i'm fascinated by its history and place in the world, not a defender of everything it does
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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
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Posted: July 05 2017 at 23:53 |
First of all, I respect your opinions mainly due t the fact that I READ your prog reviews diligently. That being said,I have been studying the former USSR and Yugoslavia in both official and nonofficial capacities and I have seen quite a few 'declassified ' documents. Written a few too. Two things 1- The KGB (my specialty) were masters of disinformation (they are doing it now, with Internet weapons), creating bogus documents that were meant to sow chaos and confusion. As you are a Russophile, you know that they have extremely crafty minds, not just chess and sports , but also everything psychological. They made Mehmet Agca, they penetrated all spheres of Western society and continue to put a lid on internal dissent, by assassination, if necessary. They deny it but with a wry twist of facts. Chess. 2- All Declassified documents have entire sentences blackened out like Roger Waters latest opus' album cover. Ever wonder what was inked out? Err..All I can say, it is not pretty (Poland air tragedy, Malaysia air shoot down, intimidation of all the former satellites).
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
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Posted: July 05 2017 at 23:56 |
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Any photo or document can be altered and photo-shopped . Eye witness accounts are the true barometer of truth. Always has been.
Edited by tszirmay - July 05 2017 at 23:58
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 15189
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Posted: July 06 2017 at 07:26 |
tszirmay wrote:
First of all, I respect your opinions mainly due t the fact that I READ your prog reviews diligently. That being said,I have been studying the former USSR and Yugoslavia in both official and nonofficial capacities and I have seen quite a few 'declassified ' documents. Written a few too. Two things 1- The KGB (my specialty) were masters of disinformation (they are doing it now, with Internet weapons), creating bogus documents that were meant to sow chaos and confusion. As you are a Russophile, you know that they have extremely crafty minds, not just chess and sports , but also everything psychological. They made Mehmet Agca, they penetrated all spheres of Western society and continue to put a lid on internal dissent, by assassination, if necessary. They deny it but with a wry twist of facts. Chess. 2- All Declassified documents have entire sentences blackened out like Roger Waters latest opus' album cover. Ever wonder what was inked out? Err..All I can say, it is not pretty (Poland air tragedy, Malaysia air shoot down, intimidation of all the former satellites). |
Are you disagreeing with something? Not really clear. Everything you say rings true to me. I'm simply pointing out that the US and other Western powers have been just as destructive to other nations and exceeded anything Russia has ever done. The US is the only country to have dropped atomic bombs on another country. The US has hundreds of military bases across the world. The US controls NATO to a great extent. Etc. I've dug deep into the wells of knowledge about my own country and compared to Russia, has committed countless more war crimes against humanity. The CIA has also been masters of media manipulation since WW2, so yes what you say about Russia is so true but also true of the US, the UK, France and anyone else who can get away with it 
Edited by siLLy puPPy - July 06 2017 at 07:56
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 15189
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Posted: July 06 2017 at 07:32 |
tszirmay wrote:
Any photo or document can be altered and photo-shopped . Eye witness accounts are the true barometer of truth. Always has been.
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Actually anything can be faked. I agree. That's why i find whistleblower testimonies to be some of the most reliable guages of figuring something out.
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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2831
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Posted: July 06 2017 at 07:36 |
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I have to laugh, considering the number of wars and border conflicts the CIA have sponsored over the years. Yes, Saudi Arabia is a collection of very naughty gentlemen. In perspective, so is the UK, the USA, Russia, China..... it's not "black and white cowboy hats", this is how the world works.
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
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Posted: July 06 2017 at 14:09 |
Perhaps reading Anne Applebaum's compelling book "Iron Curtain" shows some more insidious aspects of the USSR. She is a leftist too, BTW. Or the Mitrokihn archives....My parents left communist Hungary, with guards shooting at them in 1957. They did not want to stay in the workers false paradise , nor did they wish to join the American Dream. They opted for Canada instead. By all accounts, a decent country.
There is alway a silent THIRD option.....  |
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
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Posted: July 06 2017 at 14:13 |
I am absolutely not disagreeing with you at all, the USA remains a land of polar opposites and false pretenses but I do swallow sideways with Stone, as his view of Russia and the former Soviet Union is tainted with massive amounts of idealistic nonsense. Both the US and the USSR showed incredible amount of ignorance and naiveté when dealing with each other, which is quite stunning to fathom, even today. In fact, there are many incredible parallels in terms of imperialism on both sides (Vietnam vs Afghanistan), as well as incompetent dysfunctional disasters (Three Mile Island vs Chernobyl) and certainly in the power play that was the Cold War, including a whole series of near-Armageddon misses , both sides are clearly guilty of various abuses both externally and internally. The main difference lies in the quality of life between the two superpowers. Living in the West certainly gave rise to a certain form of freedom of expression and thought that simply did not exist in the Soviet Union, by the nature of the type of society., both borne from revolution and yet distinctively opposite for perhaps more cultural reasons. For one, Russians were prevented from even contemplating visits to the ‘diseased’ West and were fed a series of lies to keep their people complacent and obedient. The same was true for westerners wanting to explore Mother Russia, fueled by loads of misconceptions. That being said, the Gulag did exist and Stalin purges were real.
The USSR collapsed due to massive economic mismanagement, poor strategic investment as well as political monolithic constraints. Period. A system that repudiates any profit is doomed to fail, as you keep on Ponzi-scheming forever until the whole thing collapses. You cannot sell a product for 50 cents when it costs one a dollar to make. That was the SU! Inefficient, mismanaged and consequence-laden. It collapsed like all empires, from internal rot, on social, political and economic levels. Gorbachev, as agricultural minister, realized this when visiting Eugene Whelan’s farm near Windsor, Ontario in the mid-80s and expecting a feudal, oppressive workers prison. He knew then that the Socialist Workers paradise could not advance further without ‘openness’ and ‘interface’. Any collective where decisions are taken by a political elite rarely works. Yugoslavia succeeded at that, Israel certainly did as well, and many Western social democracies as well (Canada, Scandinavia, most of Europe etc,,) .
My 2 cents....
Its all mind games, pals with Saudis yet allies with Israel.
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 15189
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Posted: July 06 2017 at 22:19 |
tszirmay wrote:
I am absolutely not disagreeing with you at all, the USA remains a land of polar opposites and false pretenses but I do swallow sideways with Stone, as his view of Russia and the former Soviet Union is tainted with massive amounts of idealistic nonsense. Both the US and the USSR showed incredible amount of ignorance and naiveté when dealing with each other, which is quite stunning to fathom, even today. In fact, there are many incredible parallels in terms of imperialism on both sides (Vietnam vs Afghanistan), as well as incompetent dysfunctional disasters (Three Mile Island vs Chernobyl) and certainly in the power play that was the Cold War, including a whole series of near-Armageddon misses , both sides are clearly guilty of various abuses both externally and internally. The main difference lies in the quality of life between the two superpowers. Living in the West certainly gave rise to a certain form of freedom of expression and thought that simply did not exist in the Soviet Union, by the nature of the type of society., both borne from revolution and yet distinctively opposite for perhaps more cultural reasons. For one, Russians were prevented from even contemplating visits to the ‘diseased’ West and were fed a series of lies to keep their people complacent and obedient. The same was true for westerners wanting to explore Mother Russia, fueled by loads of misconceptions. That being said, the Gulag did exist and Stalin purges were real.
The USSR collapsed due to massive economic mismanagement, poor strategic investment as well as political monolithic constraints. Period. A system that repudiates any profit is doomed to fail, as you keep on Ponzi-scheming forever until the whole thing collapses. You cannot sell a product for 50 cents when it costs one a dollar to make. That was the SU! Inefficient, mismanaged and consequence-laden. It collapsed like all empires, from internal rot, on social, political and economic levels. Gorbachev, as agricultural minister, realized this when visiting Eugene Whelan’s farm near Windsor, Ontario in the mid-80s and expecting a feudal, oppressive workers prison. He knew then that the Socialist Workers paradise could not advance further without ‘openness’ and ‘interface’. Any collective where decisions are taken by a political elite rarely works. Yugoslavia succeeded at that, Israel certainly did as well, and many Western social democracies as well (Canada, Scandinavia, most of Europe etc,,) .
My 2 cents....
Its all mind games, pals with Saudis yet allies with Israel. |
Very well said 
I'm only rooting for Russia in the sense that i think it's necessary for their to be more than one super power. The US has gotten away with far too many crimes against humanity for far too long. I don't know where it's all heading but it is a good thing for empires to have to think twice before prodceeding with their ridiculous behaviors. I've been all over the Eastern Europe and i love the people but like everywhere else find the governments to be the problem 
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Points: 20602
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Posted: July 07 2017 at 08:02 |
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^Let's not get carried away now. Please think about what your saying.
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 15189
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Posted: July 07 2017 at 10:45 |
SteveG wrote:
^Let's not get carried away now. Please think about what your saying. |
I've very much thought about this. If the US controlled Siberia, every single square kilometer would be deforested with the indingenous peoples elimated and i could only go on and on and on. Despite Russia's legitmate evils committed, it has also been a viable counterforce to some of the evils of Western hegemonic ambitions as well. I shudder at the thought of ANY nation ruling the world.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Points: 20602
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Posted: July 07 2017 at 10:55 |
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I'm sorry, but Russia is the worst of two evils. Our democratic process still ensures transparency in goverment. That is not the case with Russia, and never will be.
Edited by SteveG - July 07 2017 at 10:55
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
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Points: 11415
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Posted: July 07 2017 at 19:00 |
siLLy puPPy wrote:
I'm only rooting for Russia in the sense that i think it's necessary for their to be more than one super power. The US has gotten away with far too many crimes against humanity for far too long. I don't know where it's all heading but it is a good thing for empires to have to think twice before prodceeding with their ridiculous behaviors. I've been all over the Eastern Europe and i love the people but like everywhere else find the governments to be the problem
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The trick in the schoolyard is finding two bullies willing to fight each other. The smart ones leave that up to the rest of us.
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
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Posted: July 07 2017 at 19:52 |
SteveG wrote:
I'm sorry, but Russia is the worst of two evils. Our democratic process still ensures transparency in goverment. That is not the case with Russia, and never will be.
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I would argue that our democratic transparency is nothing more than an illusion. I'm not sure where you live but here in the USA our "democracy" didn't ensure the election of Gore in the year 2000. It was hijacked by the Supreme Court. It didn't prevent the illegal occupation of Iraq (not to mention Vietnma, Korea etc) and the untold millions of deaths. It didn't prevent the CIA backed coup d'etats of Honduras, Libya, etc. The truth is that the whole "democracy" is nothing more than a charade. A clever crafted puppet show to keep the masses entertained. I could go on for hours as i've been digging for years into deep state secrecy. There is a thing called the black budget here. That is a blackhole of secrecy that is paid for by the taxpayers but isn't even accountable to Congress as it's completely classified no one knows for sure what it does. I have heard hundreds of hours of whistleblower testimony about these things. As far as Russia, i think of its role similar to Golem's in Lord of the Rings. It is coming to the table with totally twisted intentions but will unknowingly be a major player in making sure the ring of power ends up in the fiery pits of Mordor. Like i said, i could go on for days about this stuff but i'm over it. I'd rather write another music review instead :P
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Tillerman88
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 31 2015
Location: Tomorrowland
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Points: 495
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Posted: July 07 2017 at 20:12 |
^You just couldn't say it better man!..... Just wondering how many Americans really think like you........ from the fateful 1945 deal struck by FDR & Ibn Saud up to this day...
Edited by Tillerman88 - July 07 2017 at 20:12
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The overwhelming amount of information on a daily basis restrains people from rewinding the news record archives to refresh their memories...
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
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Posted: July 07 2017 at 21:19 |
Tillerman88 wrote:
^You just couldn't say it better man!..... Just wondering how many Americans really think like you........ from the fateful 1945 deal struck by FDR & Ibn Saud up to this day...
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Thanks :) Puppy hugs from a black sheep (or labrador retriver!) of the American family 
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