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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: September 06 2016 at 20:48 |
SteveG wrote:
I posted a serious question, so it looks as though I'll have to answer it. No. Instant communication around the world has not done anything substantial like ending armed conflicts, but has become a tool to draw in the socially outcast into militant groups like ISIS. It is also used by many, without a purpose in life, as a time wasting toy. Aside from the brief above stated negatives, I can't say anything positive about the Internet. And that is serious. And sad.
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...and is your point better made than any of the frivolous and flippant posts made before yours? Somehow I think not because one thing you cannot do with the World Wide Web or the Internet, as many threads here have ably demonstrated, is force it to behave or react the way you want it to and there is nothing you can do about it when it doesn't.
A point of clarification (or two): The thread title asks "Is the world better off because of the Internet?" whereas the OP asks "is our world better off because of the Worldwide Web?" and while colloquially we use these two terms interchangeably, they are not the same - the Internet is a system of interconnected computer networks while the World Wide Web is a collection of text documents and other resources accessible through the Internet using one of a number of file transfer protocols that serve the Internet. You'll note there that I wrote "a system of interconnected computer networks" and not "a system of interconnected computers" because the Internet is a network of networks and that means it is not a thing or an entity but a network of interconnected transient conduits so the computers and servers at each node are not the Internet. The Internet was never intended to end all wars, its intended purpose was (and still is) as a military tool used to win them - development of the Internet was funded by the US DoD. The WWW is just a small part of what the Internet is and that was never its primary purpose then or now, it's just the 'visible' part of it we are all familiar with.
Presuming data propagates through a conductor at roughly the speed of light (which it doesn't but for the sake of argument let's pretend that it can go that fast) so in 1 millisecond it would travel 300km and therefore will take 1 minute 6 seconds to travel half-way around the world. To traverse 20,000km in 1 millisecond requires data to propagate at 67 times the speed of light so until we can defy physics and get data to travel at Warp 3.5 were stuck with global communication being a long way short of being instant. Not that this distracts from the gist of what you are saying but it's the science equivalent of those tetchy grammar errors like split infinitives, erroneous use of double negatives and those "your, you're and yaw" and "they're, there and their" spelling errors - i.e. meaningless to those who don't give a flying fart but annoying and irksome to those who do. Yeah, I know you could have been using it figuratively but the difference between 1 millisecond and 66 seconds is like me saying Stonehenge is a yard from my desk when it's really 37 miles away (it's not 37 miles but until I find out how accurate the doompaul's cat is at shooting lasers while riding a taco I'll not be posting my exact co-ordinates over an open comm link).
(and just to make Madan feel a little younger...)
In Internet terms I'm not just old, I'm positively ancient because unlike other silver-surfers, I was an early adopter so I have been using the Internet for more years than many Internet/WWW users have been alive and I've seen it morph from a scientific/military tool into the world-wide shopping mall we see today. For a brief period during the middle two quarters of the 1990s when we were all dialling in at 4800 baud (if we were bloody lucky) and watching Mosaic piece together low-resolution images of scantily clad young ladies (and cats riding tacos shooting lasers) one pixel at a time, it seemed like it was there just for us to play with and all the world was ours to do with as we pleased. That's not to say it was a nice place because it wasn't - it was nasty and vicious, especially in IRC and Usenet forums, where dog not only ate dog, it would track down their canine ancestors, dig their bones up and noisily gnaw on them while humming "How Much Is That Doggy In The Window" - it was like the wild west but without the guns and the dubious preoccupation with cows and horses. However, despite all that, it was ours and even though we paid for it by the minute like some sleazy motel room, it was free from corporate interference and devoid of all those snot-nosed "dot-com" exploiters who only saw the Internet as a constant stream of $$$ signs, and that felt free to us because it wasn't permanently jacked-in to our credit cards and bank accounts, and we weren't inundated by a constant stream of adverts and junk mail.
Back then it was real social media long before it became the homogenised, sanitised and packaged into a world wide reality show of FaceBook, Twitter and all those other modern easy-to-use social media 'networks' where everyone is a star and everyone is famous for 15 people. Because in those halcyon daze there was a feeling of ownership and community across the whole publicly accessible parts Internet that only survives today in secluded little alcoves like this and other similar forums (which is why we defend them so fiercely against those whose actions would inadvertently or deliberately disrupt them). Yet we never expected it to solve all the ills of the world nor did anyone ever think that it would, could or should.
Being able to converse with someone you've never met IRL five, ten or twenty thousand kilometres away in a matter of minutes (or more often hours) doesn't mean that communication is better, what this vast social experiment has revealed is humans are dreadful at communication, especially in the written word where we cannot use body language, facial expression and tone of voice to help us interpret what the other person is trying to say - a failing compounded when the wrong worm is typed in what they are saying.
The Internet/WWW does not bring people together and it does not create a global community were conflict and aggression no longer exists - as I said before: The Internet makes everyone parochial and insular - rather than celebrate and encourage what makes us the same we spend all our energy defending and protecting what makes us different - everyone on the Internet is permanently on the defensive because having been burnt once too often we cannot trust everyone we meet online, so for our own protection we end up trusting no one.
And that's what's really sad because when we all work together in trust and openness we can achieve great things - like this Archive of Progressive Rock that a few hundred people like Micky and myself devoted thousands of hours of free time to help populate with 9,686 bands & artists, and 51,104 albums so that many thousand more folk could then add 1,310,732 reviews of those albums. And if that isn't a positive then I really don't know what the is.
Edited by Dean - September 06 2016 at 20:56
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What?
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 15189
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Posted: September 06 2016 at 21:10 |
Dean wrote:
And if that isn't a positive then I really don't know what the is.
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, yeah!
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Barbu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: infinity
Status: Offline
Points: 30850
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Posted: September 06 2016 at 23:58 |
Magistral Yawn.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20602
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Posted: September 07 2016 at 03:42 |
Dean wrote:
SteveG wrote:
I posted a serious question, so it looks as though I'll have to answer it. No. Instant communication around the world has not done anything substantial like ending armed conflicts, but has become a tool to draw in the socially outcast into militant groups like ISIS. It is also used by many, without a purpose in life, as a time wasting toy. Aside from the brief above stated negatives, I can't say anything positive about the Internet. And that is serious. And sad.
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...and is your point better made than any of the frivolous and flippant posts made before yours?
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Yes, absolutely. Making frivolous and flippant posts does not consider the possibilities of what can or should have been achieved with the Internet and why those possibilities haven't been achieved, and no 1000+ (sic) word reply from you can change that.
Edited by SteveG - September 07 2016 at 03:44
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: September 07 2016 at 04:35 |
SteveG wrote:
Dean wrote:
SteveG wrote:
I posted a serious question, so it looks as though I'll have to answer it. No. Instant communication around the world has not done anything substantial like ending armed conflicts, but has become a tool to draw in the socially outcast into militant groups like ISIS. It is also used by many, without a purpose in life, as a time wasting toy. Aside from the brief above stated negatives, I can't say anything positive about the Internet. And that is serious. And sad.
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...and is your point better made than any of the frivolous and flippant posts made before yours?
| Yes, absolutely. Making frivolous and flippant posts does not consider the possibilities of what can or should have been achieved with the Internet and why those possibilities haven't been achieved, and no 1000+ (sic) word reply from you can change that.
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And how different is that to what you posted? At the end of the day every post here, including yours, has been an out-take from Grumpy Old Men.
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What?
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Online
Points: 16913
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Posted: September 07 2016 at 07:44 |
I don't think so. But it has its moments.
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progaardvark
Collaborator
Crossover/Symphonic/RPI Teams
Joined: June 14 2007
Location: Sea of Peas
Status: Offline
Points: 50768
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Posted: September 07 2016 at 08:16 |
We have a community here of fans of prog rock. Without the Internet, we'd have to join an old-fashioned society with quarterly (maybe even monthly) publications, pay dues, and maybe even attend an annual conference. Imagine all of those unknown bands we might never discover. Imagine all the bands from the 1970s that were able to record some music but could never get a record deal. Without the Internet, many of these recordings would never see the light of day. To skip to another hobby, imagine what genealogical research was like before the Internet. Who would want to go back to that? This is just two areas of interest to me. What about scientific research? Or any area of academia? It may be a tool that has been abused by the "socially outcast," but it has brought a lot more of us together that would have never had the opportunity to meet, converse, share our knowledge, and form wonderful communities. If you "can't say anything positive about the Internet" than why are you connected to it at all?
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---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions
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chopper
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 20029
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Posted: September 07 2016 at 09:35 |
There are plenty of good things - 1) I can play practically any music I want 2) I can have a video chat with relatives in Australia and the USA 3) I can order things and have them delivered the next day instead of trudging around loads of shops in an endless search for them. 4) I can have a chat with the guys in my band to arrange rehearsal dates without having to make hundreds of phone calls.
and then there are plenty of bad things as well that I don't need to go into.
and there are photos of cute animals.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: September 07 2016 at 10:00 |
No internet = no cat and dog videos
What would be the point of anything then...
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: September 07 2016 at 10:04 |
*spits beer on monitor* good one Teo yeah.. f**k that internet. IF Raff didn't have all those cute cat vidoes and pictures to download than she'd actually want to get a real cat. God I love women. She has comittement issues about adopting a cat in case she had to go back to Italy... this from the same woman that moved half a world to meet me.. who could have been an axe murderer. so what does that say about her dear husband..... are cats more important than ME!! Leave the Mick.. grab the feline women... go figure.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: September 07 2016 at 10:05 |
Actually I already have 2 cats. The internet makes me want MORE. AND add a dog or two
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: September 07 2016 at 10:08 |
well.. after all these years.. and jokes and ridicule of my coworkers for not having a cat even though we both adore and love them.. more than people in general... I'm likely going to just bite the bullet and surprise her. Our 10 year mark being a couple comes up next month... she couldn't possibly get too mad at me if I did and surprised her with a feline child of our own
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: September 07 2016 at 10:44 |
EDIT: actually, if she still visits these territories every now and then, I'm not too sure about the "surprise" part...
Edited by The T - September 07 2016 at 10:53
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Barbu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: infinity
Status: Offline
Points: 30850
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Posted: September 07 2016 at 12:29 |
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CPicard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 03 2008
Location: Là, sui monti.
Status: Offline
Points: 10841
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Posted: September 07 2016 at 12:35 |
Reading all the posts about cute animals pictures make me wonder if you're talking about the Internet or your Facebook threads. Or maybe I don't spend enough time looking for lolcats on the web and spend too much time watching re-runs of "Sick, Sad World"?
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Luna
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 28 2010
Location: Funky Town
Status: Offline
Points: 12794
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Posted: September 07 2016 at 15:11 |
Is the world better off because of automobiles? Is the world better off because of the telephone? Is the world better off because of cameras? Is the world better off because of the printing press? Is the world better off because of written language?
You could argue yes or no for any of these, but the world would be unrecognizable without any of these things.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: September 07 2016 at 18:50 |
Dean wrote:
as I said before: The Internet makes everyone parochial and insular - rather than celebrate and encourage what makes us the same we spend all our energy defending and protecting what makes us different - everyone on the Internet is permanently on the defensive because having been burnt once too often we cannot trust everyone we meet online, so for our own protection we end up trusting no one.
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Sorry Dean, but this is too generalised. When I and my parents visited America, all the previous exposure to American culture as well as the availability of online maps and other information certainly made us feel much more comfortable in what was for us a new world. It's not like nobody traveled far to visit America before, but the internet can make it a much better experience. To illustrate your point about insularity, one evening we were searching for a place to eat in Niagara. We saw what looked like a restaurant and I walked up to it to check it out. As I was walking back, a group of four-five Indian tourists were also walking along, looking for a restaurant. They asked me what was that place and I said it seemed to be a pizza joint and they recoiled almost instantly and said (with typical Indian hand gestures ), "No, no pizza." Well, we did find an Indian restaurant to dine for the night but the next day we headed to the same pizza joint and it was great. So it is not the internet that makes people insular; that insularity is already there (maybe at worst internet gets us in contact with such insular attitudes more often than we would desire but again my example above was a face to face interaction). We have the choice to get out of the internet whatever we want. If we are loath to learn from our mistakes and hell bent on repeating them over and over, I don't think internet nor anything else can ever help us get over that. Personally, I think it is a terrible idea to travel all the way to America and insist on only Indian cuisine. Better don't waste your time making that trip, then. I mean, you still have internet to look at photographs of all the tourist spots.
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Online
Points: 16913
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Posted: September 07 2016 at 19:25 |
Madan, how did you find the Indian food over here? I ask because we love Indian food and have several restaurants that we think are good....but I'm always kind of curious what Indians think of American Indian places.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: September 07 2016 at 20:49 |
Finnforest wrote:
Madan, how did you find the Indian food over here? I ask because we love Indian food and have several restaurants that we think are good....but I'm always kind of curious what Indians think of American Indian places.
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We tried two restaurants while we were in America and both were really good. In fact, the manager of one restaurant told us the flour being unadulterated was better than in India.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65166
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Posted: September 07 2016 at 21:03 |
^ The best I've had is in London, but I like the family-style cooking.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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