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chopper View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is Prog Rock the New Folk?
    Posted: August 29 2014 at 13:01
Interesting article - apparently prog is about to become hip again.


Not sure about Richard Clayderman though.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2014 at 13:10
Great blog indeed!
chopper, thank you for posting.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2014 at 13:17
Can you imagine? A group of young hipsters sitting in a room, and one of them puts on Tales from Topographic Oceans, fresh out of the sleeve. 80 minutes elapse, and thus ends the prog revival era. Tongue

Great read though, thanks for posting.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2014 at 13:42
When you look at what has happened to the "music" that is being fed the denizens of the TV,
one could say that the people must revolt.  It's like corporations think they can say what people should
see as legitimate art and force feed us spiritual values of ????  Folk and labor music have a close
relationship.  Pete Seeger was an awesome guy (and wrote a great book, The Incomplete Folksinger). 
One can see the people's reason for prog in that it's music that is actually music in a historic sense of the idea
of music.   



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2014 at 13:53
Originally posted by brainstormer brainstormer wrote:

When you look at what has happened to the "music" that is being fed the denizens of the TV,
one could say that the people must revolt.  It's like corporations think they can say what people should
see as legitimate art and force feed us spiritual values of ????  Folk and labor music have a close
relationship.   

This.

Originally posted by Metalmarsh89 Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Can you imagine? A group of young hipsters sitting in a room, and one of them puts on Tales from Topographic Oceans, fresh out of the sleeve. 80 minutes elapse, and thus ends the prog revival era. Tongue

I can imagine that happening LOL.

"Dude...Smoke...put on Tales..."

Great link/read!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2014 at 14:21
No. Simply put, the old folk or folk rock never went away. As much as the media and we in the prog community ignore groups like Bon Iver or Mumford and Sons, they are folk based music groups. In the United States, we are fortunate enough to have had the last strong holdout in both political folk and folk rock music in the works of the great Ry Cooder with albums such as My Name Is Buddy, Pull Up Some Dust And Sit Down, and Election Special, where Cooder slams everyone from Sarah Palin, Mitt Romney (youtube MUTT Romney Blues) to the state of Florida's Stand Your Ground gun laws. Cooder even made a string of concept albums 2003 to 2008 commonly referred to as his "California trilogy", that's more progressive than what most Progressive Rock groups actually produce at present. I'll put it another way, prog rock was never even the old folk to begin with. Who makes up this idiotic stuff, anyway?

Edited by SteveG - August 29 2014 at 16:00
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2014 at 14:32
I doubt it will become mainstream/popular, unless there's some incredible band or bands to come that can re-introduce prog to kids my age without alienating them. Prog's never really disappeared since the mid-70s anyway (Rush in late 70s, Peter Gabriel and Marillion in the 80s, Dream Theater and Porcupine Tree in the 90s, etc.) and definitely isn't fading into oblivion or anything. It doesn't need a huge revival or to be discovered by the public, because it's always there to be found for whoever wants to find it with the help of the Internet, so I won't be disappointed if this never happens. The whole Kate Bush thing might set off a spark if it's lucky, but that's the only real argument I can see in the article (Harry Potter and Lord Of The Rings have been around for about a decade now, and the only people I know who watch Game Of Thrones are more into reading and art than music). Would be very interesting to see what would happen if it did, but the chances are slim. Thanks for posting this though Chopper! Thumbs Up
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2014 at 19:00
Originally posted by Xonty Xonty wrote:

I doubt it will become mainstream/popular, unless there's some incredible band or bands to come that can re-introduce prog to kids my age without alienating them. Prog's never really disappeared since the mid-70s anyway (Rush in late 70s, Peter Gabriel and Marillion in the 80s, Dream Theater and Porcupine Tree in the 90s, etc.) and definitely isn't fading into oblivion or anything. It doesn't need a huge revival or to be discovered by the public, because it's always there to be found for whoever wants to find it with the help of the Internet, so I won't be disappointed if this never happens. The whole Kate Bush thing might set off a spark if it's lucky, but that's the only real argument I can see in the article (Harry Potter and Lord Of The Rings have been around for about a decade now, and the only people I know who watch Game Of Thrones are more into reading and art than music). Would be very interesting to see what would happen if it did, but the chances are slim. Thanks for posting this though Chopper! Thumbs Up


The prog bands wouldn't complain though. Dream Theater is probably one of the few examples of current prog bands that continue to sell out theaters and arenas (do they play outdoors) without any trouble. I'm sure prog bands wouldn't mind a little more cashflow.

What I wonder is if a prog revival does happen, will it be a result of the media deciding that these prog bands play good music and should be the next popular thing? Or will it come from the other side, with already popular rock, electronic, or folk bands deciding they want to explore there sounds and abilities further, and entering the realm of prog that way. Muse comes to mind, being not only popular, but rather eclectic in their styles.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2014 at 19:02
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2014 at 23:58
I've seen bell bottoms come back in style, and I'm hoping to live long enough to see three-cornered hats come back in vogue again. I can see Prog becoming big again, easily. I'm not sure it's the best thing, because it'll eventually reach a point when it goes out of style once again. If it does become popular again, it needs to do so while still cultivating a cool underground status and presence.

It'd be nice if Symphonic Prog came back in style, to eventually be replaced by the underground Canterbury style, which, in turn, would be replaced by the underground RIO/Avant. That's a real pipe dream, though.

Edited by HackettFan - August 30 2014 at 00:27
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2014 at 00:48
I'm not sure if I want progressive rock back in the mainstream.  With the state of today's music industry, any innovation is going to be absorbed into the homogenous blob of mediocrity so quickly that a re-entrance of progressive rock into the "pop" world can only result in the compromising of the artistic quality of the music.  Rock music is certainly due for the next "watershed" rock band, but the last mainstream band of that kind, Nirvana, accomplished remarkably little with regard to influencing the quality of mainstream popular music because the music industry, as it is wont to do, merely incorporated their style into its b*****dized version of rock music that has all the bells and whistles of real rock 'n roll without the artistic quality.

Even the prog bands that are popular today are predominantly, for lack of a better term, "cult" bands; Dream Theater, (formerly) TMV, Rush, Radiohead and the like all appeal to a very specific, loyal fanbase and, despite their success, aren't widely appreciated or listened to in today's culture, more broadly speaking.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2014 at 01:09
Originally posted by brainstormer brainstormer wrote:

When you look at what has happened to the "music" that is being fed the denizens of the TV,
one could say that the people must revolt.  It's like corporations think they can say what people should
see as legitimate art and force feed us spiritual values of ???? 

I've always seen it much differently: people listen to what they like.   Whether something is hugely popular or culturally obscure doesn't really make a difference (beyond maybe exposure), Michael Jackson sold a lot of records because people think he's a great singer/entertainer.   And they're right, of course.   But even if they were wrong, Jackson is still who they'd want to hear.   It's no accident ~ or conspiracy ~ that simpler, formulaic, catchy music does better than other styles.   People can digest, keep up with, and enjoy it.   I don't blame them.





Edited by Atavachron - August 30 2014 at 01:12
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2014 at 02:18
^ Exactly. Well put. Go with what you like ... as long as it has standards.

If the popularity of prog is really on its slow rise, then I can see that happening in the UK. I don't think it's going to happen in the US any time soon.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2014 at 06:12
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by brainstormer brainstormer wrote:

When you look at what has happened to the "music" that is being fed the denizens of the TV,
one could say that the people must revolt.  It's like corporations think they can say what people should
see as legitimate art and force feed us spiritual values of ???? 

I've always seen it much differently: people listen to what they like.   Whether something is hugely popular or culturally obscure doesn't really make a difference (beyond maybe exposure), Michael Jackson sold a lot of records because people think he's a great singer/entertainer.   And they're right, of course.   But even if they were wrong, Jackson is still who they'd want to hear.   It's no accident ~ or conspiracy ~ that simpler, formulaic, catchy music does better than other styles.   People can digest, keep up with, and enjoy it.   I don't blame them.


I have to chime in and say that I agree to an extent with what you're saying here, but one of the greatest axioms of ALL forms of marketing is:

1. Most people don't know what they want, even if they tell you they do (what they think they want and actually want are two different things)
2. Repeated exposure to something perceived as big, popular, generation-changing etc (by huge record labels with massive budgets and marketing interests/influence) biases their thinking into adopting that "this is what I like!"

I definitely agree with what you're saying that some of us more intelligent folks will know what we like and not require any direction, but the billions of people making lowest-common-denominator corporate music and trends so popular prove us to be the exception rather than the rule. I won't argue the popularity of simpler, catchier music to more complex stuff - but there is still a lot of grey area that gets glossed over IMHO.

Yes, there are plenty of corporately-backed investments that tank in the market which should have taken off. I won't argue that point. The key here is the ones that do take off are well-calculated and rooted in human psychology and behavior to exploit emotional biases and desires to the maximum for that bottom line.

I can't help that feel MJ's performing capability (he's one of my faves, btw) wouldn't be nearly as massive to the pop community if he wasn't getting HUGE pushes, Pepsi commercials, John Landis-directed music videos, the best multi-million dollar production on his records (Dangerous had an insane budget for 1991, and the production and mix is still incredible 23 years later). Where did Madonna go after being pushed in the late 80's/early 90's? Yeah, she had some huge hits here and there in the late 90's early 00's, but they weren't hit after hit like in the older days. People need to be hammered over and over with things to "buy into" the idea that "this is big!". This is for mainstream stuff, not underground.

Everything that gets pumped and pushed in the moment gets perceived as "talent and success". Go back to '98-'00; it was all Backstreet Boys and NSYNC everywhere you looked. What the hell happened to everyone except Timberlake...? There is no conspiracy: it's simply marketing, and marketing done damn well IMHO.

Not arguing with you my friend, I just always have to chime in when I see statements regarding the illusion of people genuinely believing they "like" something as huge and corporately pushed as MJ. If he wasn't big, you wouldn't even know who he was (nor care - and that's the entire point), and probably overlook him entirely. That's a hard example to use, because he probably would still sell quite a bit without a huge push - my argument is that he'd be nowhere near where he was in popularity and success without said push, though. Most of my favorite bands have incredible songwriting skills and musicianship that are just as good if not better than massively popular acts. The only thing lacking is billion-dollar pushes to convince everyone and their mother that they're equally worth buying.


Edited by PrognosticMind - August 30 2014 at 06:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2014 at 06:32
No problem, debate away, that's the best part of the forums.

And I must fundamentally disagree though you make convincing points.  It is the 'billions making corporate trends so popular' who I mean when I  talk of people listening to what they like.  Maybe a bit troubling to you and I, but the exposure heaped upon the pop market is based on what the majority truly and sincerely enjoy.  It's unfortunate but true.  On the other hand sometimes the people get it right when they buy the Beatles or Santana or U2 or Prince or Peter Gabriel or anyone else of quality who's enjoyed big sales.

As for Jackson, well, he's just great:  a phenomenal vocal range and ear, great sense of drama.  Nothing wrong with that, and it sold.  If the Beatles are allowed an indispensable producer that made their stuff better, so is MJ.  Those early Jackson 5 singles are first-rate pop and he was never in better voice.  At times, Jackson could even be progressive in the context of high pop music.   As for Madonna, harder to defend because she's nowhere near the same musical league as Michael, but if you've ever seen Truth or Dare, you see why she she became so big.  It also happens to be one of the best music docs ever made.






Edited by Atavachron - August 30 2014 at 06:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2014 at 07:07
Perhaps it's just semantics then, because I feel like we're agreeing on similar points, but disagreeing on the minor details. Corporately-backed and pushed multi-media most definitely caters to a consumer need or desire, and capitalizes for maximum ROI - that's the entire nature of the game. Perhaps I should have clarified that at the beginning of my last post.

I guess the part that was irking me is when people claim "this is the best" without ever doing any real research or comparing similar artists. They just eat what's handed to them without thinking "Hey! If I like this type of music/artist...I wonder if there's MORE of this that I'm not seeing in the mainstream!", kind of like a one-shot deal type thing. I have no problem at all with majority demand; I'm just a passionate psychology nerd at heart LOL.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2014 at 09:29
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

^ Exactly. Well put. Go with what you like ... as long as it has standards.

If the popularity of prog is really on its slow rise, then I can see that happening in the UK. I don't think it's going to happen in the US any time soon.

You've obviously never been to the UK.

I'd also question whether Folk was ever particularly popular recently but then I live in Chav City (Birmingham) and have never paid much attention to the hipster parade. 
Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2014 at 12:04
I'm in Mississippi, and every "cool kid" I know is into Avett & Sons. The "hipster country" genre. Country music for city people. Real country people don't listen to Avett & Sons, they listen to Luke Bryan and other chart country.

I'd love to see prog get big again, but I'm a cynic so I doubt it. Most people my age have never heard of it. They've heard of Pink Floyd, and they may have heard of Rush or Dream Theater. This kind of music simply does not exist to a lot of people I know.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2014 at 17:02
Helping others less "educated" get into better and better forms of art is a heroic action.  Put on a superheroes movie and dream big. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2014 at 17:25
Popular tastes are not mainly about what people genuinely like. They're what people are exposed to. And what they are exposed to is highly limited and mainly what suits corporate strategies. As an analogy, look at food. What can it possibly mean to say that the people in Lawton, Oklahoma prefer a diet of fast food to other types of well regarded cuisines. That's virtually all there is here. Popular likes and dislikes are a cultural (and corporate) artifact.
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