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Xanatos View Drop Down
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Points: 305 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Multilingual Reviews
    Posted: January 05 2011 at 11:32

I will like to start this first giving great thanks and congratz to the admins and founders of the page because progarchives is going to turn 9 years old this year i think (progarchives started at 2002 right? or in 2004?) 

For making this anniversary more memorable i think we need to make the website progress in a new way to make it a more international archives , principally giving the oportunity of supporting new lenguages in reviews , this is a big problem because i am aware of several latin/hispan prog communities that are very active and have a lot of members , and when i ask to this communities why they arent registered in the archives they answer me "we cant make reviews" and "the site is in english".



Just to make and idea here are hispan/latin prog communities like prog archives

I think there are a LOT of people here that will love to make a thousand of reviews of his favorite albums but the lenguage limitation doesnt let them to do so , mostly because is very hard to put ideas as abstract as opinions on music and translate them to another lenguage that is not yours

The biggest difference with other websites like this is the archives , the whole database  of progbands and albums and best of all the possibility of make reviews of them is the biggest improvement and the thing that makes special this page , thats because i think we need to make a experiment and procced to do the following steps

1. Identification and recognition : Make a thread for identifyng the spanish speaking community in progarchives and see if they will support the idea.

I think the principal concern of the admins will be the question "Who we are gonna to report/delete bad reviews if we dont read spanish?" well then in order to report posible bad reviews give honorary collaborators like Cesar Inca (he writes in english very well and speaks spanish , he also is one of the few who review latin prog bands) the power to delete bad reviews , shure there are other members who will love to help too.

2. Make aviable: Make a option while writing a review to specify if your review is writed in spanish or english , then make in the mainpage and subgenre pages a option for seeing "only spanish reviews" or "only english reviews" or "both".

3. Announce it! : When we finish step 1 and 2 have for granted that we will have at least a thousand new member making reviews , in order to make it so , we will announce the multilingual option of progarchives in our twitter and facebook.

Opinions?


Video highly related: Zappa speaks in spanish









Edited by Xanatos - January 15 2011 at 15:08
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Snow Dog View Drop Down
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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2011 at 11:34
Why not Brazil highlighted? And Portugal and Italy come to that.

Edited by Snow Dog - January 05 2011 at 11:35
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Xanatos View Drop Down
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Points: 305 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2011 at 11:41
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Why not Brazil highlighted? And Portugal and Italy come to that.
In Brazil and Portugal they speak portuguese , In Italy they speak in Italian , Yeah they are somehow latin-based , but they are different lenguages to spanish
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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2011 at 11:48
Originally posted by Xanatos Xanatos wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Why not Brazil highlighted? And Portugal and Italy come to that.
In Brazil and Portugal they speak portuguese  no sh*t....., In Italy they speak in Italian  (wow) , Yeah they are somehow latin-based , but they are different lenguages to spanish


Somehow latin based? As much as Spanish is and in Italians case even more so.
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Points: 15585 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2011 at 11:49
Sorry Xanatos, but your thread is an improvement proposal so it sits in this section. If we make exceptions every time someone thinks their thread is "too important" for its correct section, we might as well not sub-divide the forum at all.
 
The decision to make the site English language only was taken by the founders right at the start. It has worked well for us, Interestingly, English is not the first language of either M@x or Ronnie.  I fully understand the reasoning behind your proposal, but in practical terms it would make the site much harder to run.
 
It is M@x's decision at the end of the day, but I suspect he would be hard to persuade now.
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Xanatos View Drop Down
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Points: 305 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2011 at 12:00
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Xanatos Xanatos wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Why not Brazil highlighted? And Portugal and Italy come to that.
In Brazil and Portugal they speak portuguese  no sh*t....., In Italy they speak in Italian  (wow) , Yeah they are somehow latin-based , but they are different lenguages to spanish


Somehow latin based? As much as Spanish is and in Italians case even more so.
Ok so whats your point? Why you do a question if you already know the answer? You just want to make me look bad , and Why so apathic to the obvious response?
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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2011 at 12:03
Originally posted by Xanatos Xanatos wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Xanatos Xanatos wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Why not Brazil highlighted? And Portugal and Italy come to that.
In Brazil and Portugal they speak portuguese  no sh*t....., In Italy they speak in Italian  (wow) , Yeah they are somehow latin-based , but they are different lenguages to spanish


Somehow latin based? As much as Spanish is and in Italians case even more so.
Ok so whats your point? Why you do a question if you already know the answer? You just want to make me look bad , and Why so apathic to the obvious response?

I still don't know the answer.Confused
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Points: 16715 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2011 at 15:22
Originally posted by Xanatos Xanatos wrote:

PD: First of all please dont move this post to "Help us improve the site" here everybody will see it , and thats the idea
Hahahahahaha! You really need to understand more about how a forum works before you keep posting.

Anyway, I think it would be too ambitious to try to have multilingual reviews. If we do Spanish, why not French, German, and Italian? What about Chinese? Asia is the fastest growing internet market, after all. And then we have to make sure the site is compatible with international characters, make a whole bunch of menu options, and find somebody who can read all the foreign language reviews to ensure they're not stupid. And who would want to join when it will still be a predominantly English site?
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Points: 24264 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2011 at 05:25
I think that the translation plugins will have improved a bit when PA celebrates its 10th anniversary (in 2014). Just be patient and any user can make the site as multilingual as he or she wants it: write reviews in your first language, click to translate it in (almost) correct English, copy, paste and there you are.
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Points: 67407 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2011 at 05:53
Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

I think that the translation plugins will have improved a bit when PA celebrates its 10th anniversary (in 2014). Just be patient and any user can make the site as multilingual as he or she wants it: write reviews in your first language, click to translate it in (almost) correct English, copy, paste and there you are.
Is that the way is really the case? Experience, a deep chest voice, I can say that the network function of translation services are still fairly rudimentary level, and so is unlikely to improve significantly by 2014 that would produce even in summary form a grammatically acceptable text.
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Points: 24264 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2011 at 06:02
Originally posted by Vompatti Vompatti wrote:

Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

I think that the translation plugins will have improved a bit when PA celebrates its 10th anniversary (in 2014). Just be patient and any user can make the site as multilingual as he or she wants it: write reviews in your first language, click to translate it in (almost) correct English, copy, paste and there you are.
Is that the way is really the case? Experience, a deep chest voice, I can say that the network function of translation services are still fairly rudimentary level, and so is unlikely to improve significantly by 2014 that would produce even in summary form a grammatically acceptable text.
 
It is just an optimistic scenario.
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Henry Plainview View Drop Down
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Points: 16715 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2011 at 06:08
Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

I think that the translation plugins will have improved a bit when PA celebrates its 10th anniversary (in 2014). Just be patient and any user can make the site as multilingual as he or she wants it: write reviews in your first language, click to translate it in (almost) correct English, copy, paste and there you are.
I really doubt that computers will be able to consistently do coherent translations in 3 years. Language is so complex that we're probably going to need processing power bordering on sentient AI before that happens. 

For example, here is both our posts translated into Spanish with Google and then back to English with Babelfish, and then back to English with Google, if you believe Google isn't cheating. This is not just slightly off, that a little more work on algorithms will be able to fix.
I believe that plugins of translation a little have improved when their 10 PA celebrate anniversary (in 2014). He is patient and any user can do that the site in several languages as he or wants it: to write commentaries in its first language, clicks to translate it in (almost) the English correction, to copy, to beat and it already is. I doubt much that the computers will be able to make it of consistent way coherent translations in 3 years. The language is so complex that probably we are going to need the bordering capacity of processing sensible AI before that happens.

 think the translation plugins have been improved a bit when PA is celebrating its10 anniversary (in 2014). Be patient and any user can make the site in severallanguages as he or she wants: write comments in their first language, click totranslate it in (almost) correct English, copy, paste and go.
I doubt that computers will be able to do it consistently coherent translations in 3 years. The language is so complex that we're probably going to need theprocessing power sensitive border AI before that happens.
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Points: 22989 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2011 at 09:18
^ That is pretty good! I remember having major problems to understand posts done with translators a few years back, like Mandrakertoot's. 
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Points: 20194 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2011 at 10:24
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

^ That is pretty good! I remember having major problems to understand posts done with translators a few years back, like Mandrakertoot's. 
 
I've been quite surprised by the way these online translators have improved recently.
 
I hate to say this (but it's parly in jest, coz I like Mandy), but I'm not sure Mandy's Italian texts made any sense in Italian, before he submitted them to translators though... so expecting them to make sense after ... is a little illusory.TongueWink
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Points: 4028 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2011 at 10:27
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Points: 16715 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2011 at 13:31
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

^ That is pretty good! I remember having major problems to understand posts done with translators a few years back, like Mandrakertoot's. 
Yeah, I was surprised how well translating within Google turned out (I think Babelfish hasn't been updated since the '90s so I'm unsurprised it's nonsense). I thought Google was cheating and remembering what I had already put into it, but I grabbed some text from Spanish Wikipedia and it was around as good, and, although it breaks down more when the language gets artistic or technical (which of course is what we would be focusing on here), I was still shocked by some of the sentences it produced. 

Apparently, this is because, unlike Babelfish, and like Bing, although it's better than Bing's, it guesses at what you probably mean by the statistical distribution of words rather than futilely trying to apply grammar rules. So it is more possible than I initially thought, although I think we're reaching the upper limits of what is possible with current technology. Google claims the current version of Translate is still in Beta, but I don't see how much more they can improve it. Scanning more documents is diminishing returns at this point, maybe they plan to crowd-source the difficult sentences and work with the help of the internet.

However, Google started translate in 2007, so Sean may be right and the problem was on Mandrake's end. Or maybe he just needed to use Google instead of Babelfish, we will never know now.


Edited by Henry Plainview - January 06 2011 at 13:38
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Points: 7971 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2011 at 13:32
LOL, you seriously left Portuguese and Italian out even though those tree languages have more than 95% of their grammar and lexicon in common?

Plus, native Portuguese speakers are aproximately 244 milions, about 3/5 of the amount of the spanish speakers (as  first language, I mean). If you also put in Galician, Catalan and Italian, there are aproximately 73 million more.
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Points: 10841 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2011 at 14:20
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

LOL, you seriously left Portuguese and Italian out even though those tree languages have more than 95% of their grammar and lexicon in common?

Plus, native Portuguese speakers are aproximately 244 milions, about 3/5 of the amount of the spanish speakers (as  first language, I mean). If you also put in Galician, Catalan and Italian, there are aproximately 73 million more.


It started as a technical thread, but it turns to a war of numbers (nearly 200 millions of people speaking French, na na nère!)
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2011 at 19:24
I hate to say it, though I don't support English only laws in this country, I do believe in sticking to one for the purposes of this site.

 And for those of you writing in English when it's not your native language, like say for instance those folks in the UK Tongue, you write better English than I can your language.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 8667 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2011 at 19:31
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Apparently, this is because, unlike Babelfish, and like Bing, although it's better than Bing's, it guesses at what you probably mean by the statistical distribution of words rather than futilely trying to apply grammar rules. So it is more possible than I initially thought, although I think we're reaching the upper limits of what is possible with current technology. Google claims the current version of Translate is still in Beta, but I don't see how much more they can improve it. Scanning more documents is diminishing returns at this point, maybe they plan to crowd-source the difficult sentences and work with the help of the internet.

I do seem to recall seeing a "suggest a better translation" button on it before when doing translations. 
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