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Poll Question: In the scenario below, would you force the doctors to act?(read OP)
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14 [73.68%]
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The T View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Hypothetical scenario...
    Posted: September 25 2010 at 17:21
I will not change one word. 

Hypothetical scenario: The USA has decided health care is a fundamental right and that everyone is entitled to it.  All non-elective procedures, doctor's visits, and preventative care are performed free of charge to the patient.

Most doctors, however, have quit the profession for whatever reason (let's say they start a cult and live off the land).  And for whatever reason, fewer and fewer people are going into the medical profession.  In sum, there are very few doctors, and there are plenty of needy patients, and many people are dying of various conditions.

Given that health care is a right, can (and should) the government force these doctors who abandoned the profession to take up their stethoscopes and walk treat the country's patients?


Please vote yes or no. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2010 at 19:22
No, (and I support universal healthcare) Shocked
How can they do that? Not only physically (I know its hypothetical but still)  but what right is there?

Yeah, that damn R word...but really they quit, how can you just come in and say no, you're going to treat these people? What if they refuse? Punish them? Arrest them and drive them to an office and make them treat people via gun point?
In this hypothetical scenario doing that would be pretty authoritarian....

I'd sign a deal with India and import a ton of doctors from there anyway 
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The T View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2010 at 19:26
Not a bad idea that last one! Never occurred to me.

Of course when Rob created this scenario I assumed those doctors where the only ones in a hypothetical society without any other ones. So I voted yes. I maintain my vote. Opening other alternatives makes the choice less obvious for me though...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2010 at 19:32
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Not a bad idea that last one!

O, I know Wink

Quote Of course when Rob created this scenario I assumed those doctors where the only ones in a hypothetical society without any other ones. So I voted yes. I maintain my vote. Opening other alternatives makes the choice less obvious for me though...


Yeah, I assumed that's what the intent was. But, I have to be the realist, sorry.
India already is sending so many doctors/people studying to be doctors over so in this scenario yeah, I'd just import more!

Not to derail the thread..
Assuming the US is the only country on Earth, yeah have to say no.
I was originally going to say fascist but changed it to authoritarian. Wouldn't want too sound like Mr Shields now.Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2010 at 00:15
Sorry, but your questions raises other questions.

If you've trained to be a doctor, what else would you be doing for a living instead?

Would you really want to be treated by a doctor who is forced to treat you?

Also, what the hell is up with these "doctors" who aren't Medical Doctors?  Shouldn't they be called something else?

Wait, I know, Witch Doctors.


Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2010 at 00:52
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Sorry, but your questions raises other questions.

If you've trained to be a doctor, what else would you be doing for a living instead?

IDK, maybe become a paiter or something?

Quote
Would you really want to be treated by a doctor who is forced to treat you?

The alternative would be death, so yeah

Quote

Also, what the hell is up with these "doctors" who aren't Medical Doctors?  Shouldn't they be called something else?

Wait, I know, Witch Doctors.


WE shouldn't waste our intelligence with this, you know. Brazil has a horrible, horrible public healthcare and medicine is the number 1 university course on demand. On public hospitals doctors don't have medicines, equipment and sometimes they don't have the appropriate higine (no material to clean the stuff which comes out of sick people or new discartable material). And yet there are at least 30 times more people that are looking forward to become a doctor than are unioversity seats.

Sure there are some parts of it that have a personnel deficit, like pediatrics, but that could be solved passing a law or something.

It is really impressive how north americans demonize public healthcare when it is only obvious that everybody profit from having it. Don't you like having public streets? Don't you like having public security (AKA police, army, navy and airforce)? Don't you like having public schools? Don't you like having public parks? don't you like public transportation (only counts if you DO live in a city that has at least some decent public transporation system, like NY, for example)? Don't you like having whatever other public service that you have? If you do onlyone of the said examples, i've got bad news for you.

Besides, you will spend much less with health. Yes, you will pay more taxes, but paying 100 dollars mnore to de government to implement something that will actually help you whenever you need is better than paying 1000 to a healthcare plan that will deny treatment due to some ridiculous pre-existing condition (which will actually be ruled incostitutional here in Brasil in some years, when or if that becomes more common).


Edited by CCVP - September 26 2010 at 00:57
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2010 at 01:13
In the medium term wouldn't the medical profession become an incredibly lucrative career path given the disparity between supply and demand or the industry's shortage of doctor's? (So why would the quitters choose to raise yaks in Azerbaijan or no-one want to enter the profession?)

In the short term I guess that once you have quit the medical profession your Hippocratic oath would be meaningless but there could be no just cause to force ex Doctors to act. (the state would probably only be permitted to appeal to their sense of conscience - which ultimately is all the Hippocratic Oath of ethical conduct amounts to anyway: cue Jay Negoba - is this correct?)
Assuming the scenario is reaching 'national emergency' levels then there might be the expedient of allowing formally unqualified practitioners to help out (this has been mentioned by Thellama in another thread) and would be the only instance where I could see lowering industry recognised standards as being for the greater good.

I also like to think that were healthcare a given right it would never be left solely to a private sector at the whim and mercy of the free market to provide such care. i.e. You need an infrastructure of Public Sector medicine before you could offer healthcare as a right for all.




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2010 at 01:24
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

In the medium term wouldn't the medical profession become an incredibly lucrative career path given the disparity between supply and demand or the industry's shortage of doctor's? (So why would the quitters choose to raise yaks in Azerbaijan or no-one want to enter the profession?)


In a free market where prices are allowed to adjust based on supply and demand, yes. But that is not the situation. Things like medicaid, medicare, frivolous malpractice lawsuits, med school quotas and the new Obamacare legislation severely distort the incentive structure of the market for medicine, which is why this hypothetical is not all that hypothetical at all, since lots of doctors are retiring rather than continue to practice under the new rules.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2010 at 03:26
You would be removing a human being's right to freewill if you voted yes. No can do.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2010 at 03:35
No. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2010 at 03:55

I'm not sure I see the point of Roberts Hypothetical situation.  You could just as easily have a hypothetical situation where a hypothetical country has decided that health care is only available to those that have loads of money.  But for some hypothetical reason all the trained doctors have gone off to work on the land (for example).  Would you force them to come back and work for the filthy lucre or let everybody die? 

Anyway, as they are hypothetical Doctors why would I be bothered about their feelings.  So I would of course hypothetically stick a hypothetical grenade in their hypothetical pants and threaten to pull out the hypothetical pin.  (If it was hypothetical brain surgery I would hypothetically be in the hypothetical doo doo and very deep.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2010 at 06:29
As far as I'm aware the original Hippocratic Oath is no longer sworn by all students on completion of their medical training, due to its outmoded language... many medical schools have formulated their own oaths instead.
 
At the core of these oaths is a ''fundamental medical duty to pursue patients' best medical interests'' (British Medical Association). The BMA's own revised Hippocratic Oath states: ''I promise that my medical knowledge will be used to benefit people's health; patients are my first concern...'' and ''I will do my best to help anyone in medical need, in emergencies''. If we accept that doctors are drawn to the profession by their innate understanding and natural compassion, do we then also accept that they would simply turn their backs on patients en masse?
 
No. And no to the OP as well.   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2010 at 16:05
You know what's a fundamental right? FOOD. No feeding program? Don't sound like a moral plan to me, sounds more like a big pharma corp plan.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2010 at 19:40
Originally posted by Deleuze Deleuze wrote:

You know what's a fundamental right? FOOD. No feeding program? Don't sound like a moral plan to me, sounds more like a big pharma corp plan.

No. The only right that you have is property and freedom, that's all... 


According to some. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2010 at 21:00
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Deleuze Deleuze wrote:

You know what's a fundamental right? FOOD. No feeding program? Don't sound like a moral plan to me, sounds more like a big pharma corp plan.

No. The only right that you have is property and freedom, that's all... 


According to some. 


Damn straight, Libertarians have squatters rights on the soul Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2010 at 03:13
No, and you really wouldn't want to be treated by a conscript doctor either.
 
It wouldn't be the government that "forced" them back to work, it would be the public.
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2010 at 10:11
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

No, and you really wouldn't want to be treated by a conscript doctor either.
 
It wouldn't be the government that "forced" them back to work, it would be the public.

For some, the government is not made of people by the people... it's an abstract monster made of greedy beings who only think on themselves...

...pretty much like wall street...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2010 at 06:05
I thought about ir as if in the whole world there are not enough doctors and my answer is still NO !
Practicaly we know that where there is a demand there would be someone to fulfil it. However, moraly we can not force people to do something that they do not want to do (we can force people not to do something they want to do cause it hurts others).
omri
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