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PA the only site to recognize J-R Fusion as Prog?
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BrufordFreak View Drop Down
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    Posted: September 17 2024 at 05:54
yarstruly (Scott Rich)'s recent review of 100 great prog albums has led me to wonder if ProgArchives is the only site to harbor Jazz-Rock Fusion under its umbrella.

Do you consider J-R Fusion as a form/expression of Prog?

Do you resent J-R Fuse taking up so much space on ProgArchives--wish it were relegated to M™x's other music website, JazzMusicArchives?

Sincerely, 
Drew


Edited by BrufordFreak - September 17 2024 at 05:55
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Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Do you consider J-R Fusion as a form/expression of Prog?
 
Yes, I do. It seems to me that Jazz-Rock is more similar to Symphonic Prog than it is different, especially when considered from the perspective of the broad variety of music in general.
 
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Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Do you consider J-R Fusion as a form/expression of Prog?
Former IQ and Frost* drummer Andy Edwards, who now works in music education, discusses what he considers to be the difference between fusion and prog here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oztKS5ajxpc. All a bit above my own head to be honest, since although I love my music, I'm a non-musician through and through, and can't play a note on any instrument lol!

Some of you might find Andy's take on the subject interesting though.
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Yes, me too. The progressivity of that style of music put it in the same boat of prog in general.
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Do you consider J-R Fusion as a form/expression of Prog?
yes

Do you resent J-R Fuse taking up so much space on ProgArchives--wish it were relegated to M™x's other music website, JazzMusicArchives?
no
If I remember right, JRF is a subgenre on JMA. 
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Yes and no. Some Jazz-Fusion is prog, some is not. Depends! Smile
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And for the record, PA is not the only website where JRF can be listed as prog. Cool
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Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Do you consider J-R Fusion as a form/expression of Prog?
Yes. And also no. Meaning I support PA in the inclusive approach it has chosen. In that sense I find it natural that Jazz Rock/Fusion is one of many sub-genres here. However I do not think of it as Prog the way I think of Gabriel-era Genesis as Prog. Sometimes a J-R F album or artist feel strongly related to Prog, while other times I hear very little relation at all. The same goes for Progressive Electronic, Post Rock/Math Rock and several other sub genres in the outer realms of Progressive Rock.
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Do you resent J-R Fusion taking up so much space on ProgArchives--wish it were relegated to M™x's other music website, JazzMusicArchives?
No, I'm glad it's included here.
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Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

...
Do you consider J-R Fusion as a form/expression of Prog?
...

Hi,

Honestly, I do. In general, all forms of music fall into the "progressive" area of things just by how they all mix and match bits and pieces, and J-R is no different than anything else.

It being "recognized" at PA, is probably good, if not better than a lot of places that tend to be more discriminatory and selective in their choices, thus further placing "progressive" into a downward spiral that hurts the whole thing ... and it wasn't like in the late 60's and early 70's the well known "progressive" folks that helped name it, were also inspired by other forms of music and used many details from it ... so in essence, nothing has changed and the discussion ends up being a bit ... on the strange side ... and not exactly about music per se, which has evolved because of all its variations and mixes for a long time ... history tells us a lot if we look at it some ... not ignore it. J-R is not peculiar or grossly different to warrant its own design and definition ... thus a place like PA is helpful to it.
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No. However, a vast number of Jazz Rock and Jazz Fusion records are not 100% "pure" and they fearture significant elements of the progressive rock genre. It works the other way around too. There are countless prog records with heavy Jazz Rock/Fusion leanings. Some bands are pretty tricky to label in that regard. Take SBB as an example. Or Modry Efekt.
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Sure fusion can be classified as prog. Now how about all the other PA subgenres. Is avant-garde, math rock, Zeuhl, Krautrock, experimental, electronic, psychedelic, tech metal, and raga rock Prog?
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

And for the record, PA is not the only website where JRF can be listed as prog. Cool
yes Wink
Gibraltar, Prog Lands and ProgGnosis (all defunct sites) listed or reviewed plenty of JR/F bands

All cited Mahavishnu, 11th House or RTForever as "prog", but not stuff like Weather Report. and Mwandishi.
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^ At AP the prog status is at release level. Not too many votes in the Fusion subgenre, but still a general picture emerges. Here's the Fusion releases tagged as prog:


And here's the Fusion releases tagged as non-prog:





Edited by MikeEnRegalia - September 17 2024 at 08:11
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Yes and no. Some Jazz-Fusion is prog, some is not. Depends! Smile

Spot on. PA's jazz fusion category isn't all encompassing. It only covers jazz that is fused with PROGRESSIVE ROCK which is why it's here

Lots of jazz fusion is jazz mixed with African music, funk or other non-prog genres but not prog

Perhaps it's not prog prog but a very close prog related relative but basically close enough to be considered a sibling at least :)




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Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Do you consider J-R Fusion as a form/expression of Prog?

NO

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Do you resent J-R Fuse taking up so much space on ProgArchives...

No, it's much better than a lot of other, poppy stuff. Big smile
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1. I see a many albums/acts tagged as progressive rock (or Canterbury Scene which I consider Prog) and jazz-rock as well as jazz fusion at RateYourMusic.

See: https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/all-time/g:all,jazz%2drock,progressive%2drock/ & https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/all-time/g:all,progressive%2drock,jazz%2dfusion/

I do prefer to the multi-genre/category labelling of albums like RYM does to how Prog Archives puts whole discographies under a category, but that's a limitation of this site (and would require a massive overhaul to change).

2. Not all Jazz-rock fusion is what I would call Prog or under the umbrella, but there is an awful that I do, and in fact I include a lot of fusion that is not in PA as appropriate for this site, including music that was shot down by the JRF team.

3. I absolutely don't think JRF takes up to much space, and there is a lot more I would add if it were up to me. I also won't advocate that all metal be relegated to M@x's metal music archives. The JRF category is way more important to me but I think both have their place as this site works.
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I'd never considered Jazz Rock/Fusion to be Progressive Rock until I arrived at ProgArchives, but I'm glad it's included here. After all, where else could I listen to Blood, Sweat & Tears, Chicago, Santana and Steely Dan and still call it prog. Smile 

By the way, I also love the way PA categorises artists under one prog sub-genre for an entire discography. I wouldn't have it any other way, which is why I never use RYM to look up artists and albums. Smile


Edited by Psychedelic Paul - September 17 2024 at 10:19
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

And for the record, PA is not the only website where JRF can be listed as prog. Cool

I had a feeling this was the case. I respect your breadth of experience enough, Mike, to accept your input as truth.

The odd thing about the above fact, then, is that most prog lovers will include Mahavishnu Orchestra and maybe even Return to Forever (and Al Di Meola) as prog artists!
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

...
Do you consider J-R Fusion as a form/expression of Prog?
...

Hi,

Honestly, I do. In general, all forms of music fall into the "progressive" area of things just by how they all mix and match bits and pieces, and J-R is no different than anything else.

It being "recognized" at PA, is probably good, if not better than a lot of places that tend to be more discriminatory and selective in their choices, thus further placing "progressive" into a downward spiral that hurts the whole thing ... and it wasn't like in the late 60's and early 70's the well known "progressive" folks that helped name it, were also inspired by other forms of music and used many details from it ... so in essence, nothing has changed and the discussion ends up being a bit ... on the strange side ... and not exactly about music per se, which has evolved because of all its variations and mixes for a long time ... history tells us a lot if we look at it some ... not ignore it. J-R is not peculiar or grossly different to warrant its own design and definition ... thus a place like PA is helpful to it.

Great response, Pedro! I agree whole-heartedly and couldn't have said it better.Clap
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Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

No. However, a vast number of Jazz Rock and Jazz Fusion records are not 100% "pure" and they fearture significant elements of the progressive rock genre. It works the other way around too. There are countless prog records with heavy Jazz Rock/Fusion leanings. Some bands are pretty tricky to label in that regard. Take SBB as an example. Or Modry Efekt.

or KBB or Kenso or Outer Limits or Delorians or Koenji Hyakkei or Bondage Fruit.
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